Bull Shot

[igotbigbulls]

well this is only the first thread of the year like this with more to come im sure.  my family harvested a nice bull that has a real cool story to go along with it that will probably never get shared on here because of the hate and discontent associated with native hunting.  kinda sad because i was waiting to see how the threads throughout the fall would play out.  now i know im prob not gonna post a story. 

If the story goes like what I have seen than it might go like this.

Woke up this morning late and let the kids skip school like most days.  Got into the new truck I bought yesterday and went and checked the gill nets at my private ramp paid for by the tax payers.  Got a flat tire on the way home and left the truck on the side of the road and bought a new one.  Stopped off by the Hanford Site and cut the fence.  Drove through the native sage and wildlands.  Chased a heard of elk into the fence corner and shot a half dozen. Cut the horns off the big ones because the Bulls are on the tough side.  Threw the Cows in the back and headed home to watch the big game and drink some brewskies.  (Still wondering how my ancestors did it without the truck, big TV & football game, and brewskies).  Got home and had a big party because my royalty check from the Casino came in the same day my welfare check came (imagine the odds of that happening).  got on the web and got pissed off at all the comments on the forum over Indians getting special treatment.

pretty harsh considering i work at the same place you do. but i did manage to shoot that nice bull your wife was gonna try to shoot with her dayton tag this year. 

[dvolmer]

pretty harsh considering i work at the same place you do. but i did manage to shoot that nice bull your wife was gonna try to shoot with her dayton tag this year. 

This isn't a personnel thing.  I am sure there are a lot of Native Americans that do the right thing but just put yourself in my shoes.  As our tags go through the roof in price, our access to hunting areas dwindle, and our quota for permits goes down it is very upsetting.  when I drive down the river and see a new boat launch and park that was paid for by my taxes and license fees that is posted for Indians only and locked up and then try to catch a salmon that every year requires a new stamp or fee and see all of the gill nets crossing the river what do you expect me to think?  When my wife puts if for a hunt for over 9 years and finally draws a tag and the area is already been hunted by the same guys that got to hunt it last year and before the season starts, what do you want me to think?  When I travel up to the Colville area and drive through the reservation every year and see vehicles (multiple and many) left on the side of the road and have the law agency tell me that when they quit running they just leave them there and get another, what do you want me to think?  When my son draws a youth Silver Dollar ranch cow permit and the land owner tells me that they are closing everything down and he doesn't get to hunt because some natives cut the Hanford site fence and chased some animals into there property and trespassed shooting a couple and driving on there fields, what do you want me to think?  When I went stealhead and salmon fishing I had to follow the single hook on my lure requirement.  While I was fishing some native Americans showed up and fished just down from me with weighted huge treble hooks trying to snag them and the locals told me they could, what do you want me to think?  When my son put in for a certain college with high grades and high test scores and was told no when others where let in because they had lower test scores and grades but where native American, what do you want me to think?

Is there a pattern to what I am saying?  Just put yourself in my shoes and reverse the rolls.  You would be furious.  You can tell yourself all you want that you wouldn't be but I guarantee you would!  Once again its nothing personnel but in the end will be no good for all involved.

Once again i ask, how long do people deserve special treatment.  I thought we where all equal or so our founding fathers told us.  When does it ever equal out and end?  I don't want special favors and am not asking for them I just want an even and equal playing field.  Is that to much to ask for?

[igotbigbulls]

pretty harsh considering i work at the same place you do. but i did manage to shoot that nice bull your wife was gonna try to shoot with her dayton tag this year. 

This isn't a personnel thing.  I am sure there are a lot of Native Americans that do the right thing but just put yourself in my shoes.  As our tags go through the roof in price, our access to hunting areas dwindle, and our quota for permits goes down it is very upsetting.  when I drive down the river and see a new boat launch and park that was paid for by my taxes and license fees that is posted for Indians only and locked up and then try to catch a salmon that every year requires a new stamp or fee and see all of the gill nets crossing the river what do you expect me to think?  When my wife puts if for a hunt for over 9 years and finally draws a tag and the area is already been hunted by the same guys that got to hunt it last year and before the season starts, what do you want me to think?  When I travel up to the Colville area and drive through the reservation every year and see vehicles (multiple and many) left on the side of the road and have the law agency tell me that when they quit running they just leave them there and get another, what do you want me to think?  When my son draws a youth Silver Dollar ranch cow permit and the land owner tells me that they are closing everything down and he doesn't get to hunt because some natives cut the Hanford site fence and chased some animals into there property and trespassed shooting a couple and driving on there fields, what do you want me to think?  When I went stealhead and salmon fishing I had to follow the single hook on my lure requirement.  While I was fishing some native Americans showed up and fished just down from me with weighted huge treble hooks trying to snag them and the locals told me they could, what do you want me to think?  When my son put in for a certain college with high grades and high test scores and was told no when others where let in because they had lower test scores and grades but where native American, what do you want me to think?

Is there a pattern to what I am saying?  Just put yourself in my shoes and reverse the rolls.  You would be furious.  You can tell yourself all you want that you wouldn't be but I guarantee you would!  Once again its nothing personnel but in the end will be no good for all involved.

Once again i ask, how long do people deserve special treatment.  I thought we where all equal or so our founding fathers told us.  When does it ever equal out and end?  I don't want special favors and am not asking for them I just want an even and equal playing field.  Is that to much to ask for?

not to much to ask for but the power is on the paper the Treaties are written on.  The governments have to change it if they want a change.  So if you had the same rights would you give them up to make it fair for everyone else? 

[sled]

  The excuse you get is that its only a few bad apples.  For some reason they cant understand that EVERYONE should have the same equal hunting rights

[igotbigbulls]

  The excuse you get is that its only a few bad apples.  For some reason they cant understand that EVERYONE should have the same equal hunting rights

No excuses from me.  I have nothing to be ashamed of or excused from.  I hunt by the regs I'm provided with.

[Woodchuck]

  The excuse you get is that its only a few bad apples.  For some reason they cant understand that EVERYONE should have the same equal hunting rights

So no more anterless tags for kids under 16? Disabled shooting from the road?
I don't do get to do these things.

[dvolmer]

  The excuse you get is that its only a few bad apples.  For some reason they cant understand that EVERYONE should have the same equal hunting rights

No excuses from me.  I have nothing to be ashamed of or excused from.  I hunt by the regs I'm provided with.

I dont know how to respond to that only than to say "WOW".  I have said my piece and you cant talk sense to a dog that licks his nuts just because he can.  I know have one more statement to go along with my others that ended in "What do you want me to think?"

[igotbigbulls]

so because i follow the laws im provided with its a bad thing?

[dvolmer]

  The excuse you get is that its only a few bad apples.  For some reason they cant understand that EVERYONE should have the same equal hunting rights

No excuses from me.  I have nothing to be ashamed of or excused from.  I hunt by the regs I'm provided with.

I dont know how to respond to that only than to say "WOW".  I have said my piece and you cant talk sense to a dog that licks his nuts just because he can.  I know have one more statement to go along with my others that ended in "What do you want me to think?"

Hittler killed 6 million jews because he could, Sadam Hussain raped and pillaged his people because he could, I could go on and on.  Just because you can does not meen it is right.  It is not you personally i am haveing a problem with it is the system.  Any time you have an advantage that you would loath if the roles where reversed is something you your self and others should think long and hard about

[mtman]

I am a dumb redneck. I will start using spell check.

[fair-chase]

Some good stuff in here as well and agree with some but, not all.

Oh Plat. You don't have to hide the fact that you agree with me 100%. I'm sure deep down your also wanting to trade in all of your ducks gear for some crimson too. It's ok, we'll understand. There's no need to feel ashamed anymore.     

[igotbigbulls]

  The excuse you get is that its only a few bad apples.  For some reason they cant understand that EVERYONE should have the same equal hunting rights

No excuses from me.  I have nothing to be ashamed of or excused from.  I hunt by the regs I'm provided with.

I dont know how to respond to that only than to say "WOW".  I have said my piece and you cant talk sense to a dog that licks his nuts just because he can.  I know have one more statement to go along with my others that ended in "What do you want me to think?"

Hittler killed 6 million jews because he could, Sadam Hussain raped and pillaged his people because he could, I could go on and on.  Just because you can does not meen it is right.  It is not you personally i am haveing a problem with it is the system.  Any time you have an advantage that you would loath if the roles where reversed is something you your self and others should think long and hard about

pretty sensitive im guessing, sheesh. all the crap you spew on here about comparing two horrible human beings to a group of people that have retained the right to hunt, fish and gather in their usual and accustomed areas is crazy. we are talking hunting. so i raise the question about YOUR rules and regulations since you insist on this is about being fair. is it fair that some are able to draw multiple quality tags in their lifetime while some never get a chance at a quality animal?  just curious on your thoughts about this.

[dvolmer]

pretty sensitive I'm guessing, sheesh. all the crap you spew on here about comparing two horrible human beings to a group of people that have retained the right to hunt, fish and gather in their usual and accustomed areas is crazy. we are talking hunting. so i raise the question about YOUR rules and regulations since you insist on this is about being fair. is it fair that some are able to draw multiple quality tags in their lifetime while some never get a chance at a quality animal?  just curious on your thoughts about this.
[/quote]

OK so I need to apologize.  You caught me on a day of ranting and I guess i just went over the edge.  I do truly think that if you really thought long and hard about it and you were in my shoes you would be just as upset about the whole thing, but it would take a new way of looking at it.  One of the hardest things to deal with also is not just all of the opportunity you are getting is the fact that we (Sportsmen) are funding it.  Its one thing to not agree with something, but to half to flip the bill also is alot to stomach.

As for the quality tags, I would support the Wyoming draw method.  Montana this year has went to it also.  It is the only fair way to distribute permits and still have low point people put in for the draw.  75% of there quality permits are given to those with the most points.  If there is 20 permits let say and the highest point put in lets say 16 and there are 6 people with 16 points than they all get a permit.  if there was 10 people putting in with 15 points than they would all get permits.  If there was 20 people with 14 points the 20 would have a drawing just amoungst themselves for the last 4 permits.  Than the following year the 16 people that would now have 15 points would be drawn for sure and so on.  The remainder of the permits (25%) would go into a random draw for all those who put in from 1 to 14 points that didn't get drawn.  this needs to happend to keep people putting in.  For instance if you drew the tag with 16 points and you knew it would take another 16 years to get drawn you might just decide not to put in any more and the state would loose the revenue (remember that for the state its all about money).  This would solve your problem with some people never getting drawn with high points.  For example, my daughter drew a Dayton big bull permit in 2006 and shot a nice 6 point bull.  In 2010 with only 2 points she drew a Observatory big bull permit and shot another nice 6 point bull.  As much as I like to see her get the permits it isn't right.  The year she got her bull in 2010 I stopped and talked to an old guy that had been putting if for over 14 years.  he was in his 70's.  He should have gotten that permit and not my daughter.  We live in a state where there is way more people than animals and habitat.  Most hunters will never shoot a 6 point bull even if they hunt hard all of their lives.  My daughter shot two by the time she was 18.  How many big bulls have you and your family shot in the last 5 to 10 years?

I know all of my life I have been taught that life isn't fair.  My father told me that fair is where you go to see the pigs and goats.  But when it is so blatantly unbalanced things need to change.  Change is painfull and I have come to the conclusion on this issue that it never will be changed because the voice of the people are easily persuaded and the uninformed will make the decision on this.  Just like the bear issue.  Show a couple of cute little bear pictures to the liberals in Seattle and using dogs legally in this state will never come back again.  We need to remember if it was up to most, hunting would be outlawed all together but there need for are revenue is way to big so they choose to turn their head and take our money for their social programs.  Just think of what kind of fishing and hunting we would have if all of our revenue was pumped back into the system and not into Washington State General Fund.  Well enough ranting from me for the night.

[igotbigbulls]

appreciate the appology but no need for it. its all about discussion. unfortunatly it will probably never be resolved in our lifetime.  i understand the frustration from state hunters.

[stuckalot]

bigbulls,
I for one would appreciate hearing the story, understand your position however.

While I share many of dvolmers frustrations, I'll narrow down to one issue of great concern to me, and it is more of a safety issue than anything.

As a bowhunter, I have flinched many times hearing rifle shots too close for comfort while I'm hiding in the brush somewhere doing my best to conceal myself, while a possibly completely legal native hunter is running around the woods with his rifle shooting at the same animals I am trying to lure in close enough to shoot with a bow!

I know of one incident this year where someone was just about to draw on a spike, when someone with a rifle shot the large bull that was in the herd with them, do you suppose they knew the bow hunter was within bow range of the elk they just shot?

Is there any room for any progress on these issues or are we just going to continue to beat our heads against the wall?