Pope & Young and minimums

[RadSav]

I have a fair number of animals that would meet the Pope & Young minimums for the record book.  I have never entered a one.  Recently the pressure from others feeling I should enter them has been growing.  Especially since taking the dall ram and nice velvet class mountain caribou last year.  But I have a problem in the demand for self gratification and promotion of ones self by recording animals that fall so far from the trophy standards of Boone & Crockett.  It's a bit more than disturbing to me how many strive for such attention on animals of respectable average.  My opinion is that record books should be a record of excellence in a species rather than a record of respectable average in a species.

I believe the Pope & Young club should begin to rethink their minimums.  What do you think? 

When founded the P&Y club was instrumental in showing the state & province agencies plus guides & outfitters that bowhunting was an effective and efficient means of hunting.  Having an ever growing list of hunters who were collecting respectable animals using the bow opened a lot of doors that were locked shut prior to the club and record book.  If you are bowhunting today you owe a great deal of gratitude to Glen St Charles and the early founders of the Pope & Young club.  But times are changing.

Today bowhunting for trophy quality animals is widely accepted.  Every state and province has made accommodations for bowhunters.  Most guides of all North American species are willing to take bowhunters.  I only know of a handful that do not.  And most of them are caught in an alternate African Safari universe holding even rifle hunters to an absurd .375 H&H minimum weapon on big bear.  They are turn of the century minded and not about to change before death.  So the game is not changing...It has changed already!  And I forever will be grateful to Glen St. Charles and our P&Y founders for that!

So now the importance of the record book for North American Bowhunting is not what it was.  It should now be a record of information and research just as the Boone & Crockett and SCI is.  Instead it is becoming a source for average men to become rich and famous claiming to be the all knowing guru's of archery and bowhunting because their number of bowhunting kills "In the record book!".  It has become a tool of commercialism and status worshiping.  Something I know Glen was worried about as we discussed it all the way back in 1988.

I have a two point blacktail with no eye guards that makes P&Y minimum.  One of my all time personal favorite trophies.  But, does a two point animal ever belong in a record book that represents the epitome of the species?  I have to say, "No!"  And there are plenty of 2X2, 2X3 and 2X4 blacktail bucks in the record book.  Even a Billy Ellis (one of the greatest bowhunting writers of all time) 3X3 muledeer that shatters the book minimum at 161-2/8.  My antelope from this year is my personal best and makes P&Y minimum with ease.  But should this animal be recorded on the same record book page as a goat the likes of "soccerguy's 'Arizona Unit 9 antelope report" just because I took it with an arrow?  On this very site guys are claiming to see 350 class elk around almost every corner in this state.  Yet last time I checked P&Y minimums are 210 for Roosevelt and 260 for Yellowstone. That's quite excellent if we are talking muledeer.  But, does that really represent a record achievement in bowhunting elk?  30-40 years ago maybe.  But in my opinion, not today!

I'd like to know if you agree or disagree with me.  And why?

[NWBREW]

I agree with you 100%.

P&Y for whitetail is what...120" or 125". Sure it's an acomplishment but....really not that high of a score.

B&C for the same animal is 160" or something like that. That is a good deer. I know what some archers will say "it's harder with a bow". Sorry....I bow hunt too and I'm not buying. I believe it is much harder to find and shoot a 160" then a 125". A 160" takes a lot more effort no matter what method you are using, they are just harder to find and much harder to hunt.

I have killed animals that would go into the record books but I have entered none. The best trophy hunt for me was the last hunt I had with my dad.....didn't kill anything but the memories of Aspen leaves falling is what stays in my mind.

[RadSav]

For clarification - I don't believe P&Y minimums need to be at the level of B&C.  Just that they need to be increased in many categories to better reflect an outstanding representation of the species.

[NWBREW]

For clarification - I don't believe P&Y minimums need to be at the level of B&C.  Just that they need to be increased in many categories to better reflect an outstanding representation of the species.

I understand what your saying and completly agree. I am in no way shape or form going to pretend that I know what it is like to take a Ram or Caribou with a bow. I do think however it should be raised for some species.

[boneaddict]

I agree RadSav.   I used to enter my trophies, now I don't bother.  It went from a feeling of accomplishment, or admiration of recording the animal, some sort of romantic thought that the animal deserved to be recognized.....to having a thought that it was just a money grab.  Its not cheap.   I also bought a record book, and the dang thing was as thck as old growth.   I thought to myself, this isn't an honor, half the world has their name in this book.   I now have a pile of animals I "need" measured or entered if I wanted to do it. 

[RadSav]

I agree RadSav.   I used to enter my trophies, now I don't bother.  It went from a feeling of accomplishment, or admiration of recording the animal, some sort of romantic thought that the animal deserved to be recognized.....to having a thought that it was just a money grab.  Its not cheap.   I also bought a record book, and the dang thing was as thck as old growth.   I thought to myself, this isn't an honor, half the world has their name in this book.   I now have a pile of animals I "need" measured or entered if I wanted to do it.

That's another thing that bothers me.  I do not have the newest book, but one from the late 80's.  And if I were to enter my latest antelope in that old book I would be in a 26 way tie for 836th place.  Can only imagine what that is now.  Maybe a 50 way tie for 1023rd place    Is that an accomplishment? 

I am absolutely thrilled with my buck!  I had to really pull a rabbit from my hat to get him.  And I will remember that shot on my death bed.  But, recording in a large tie that far down the list is an embarrassment to the animal and the sport. The only reason to ever record an animal like that is for self promotion. It will get much more respect hanging on my wall and living in the H-W archives - guaranteed! 

[boneaddict]

I still sponsor the club.   I had a chance this spring after many of years waiting to go to measurers camp, but my work schedule wouldn't allow it.    I do wish they'd make it more difficult, but not sure how they could ever do that with so many already entered.

[jess]

I agree.. Kinda! Yes a 125 whitetail is not anything special i live in whitetail country and there is tons of "P&Y bucks shot every year.. But i also think state record books show the kind of animals the state has way better than P&Y or B&C books do.. Why should a washington bull elk be compared to an arizona bull ? Or a pencil neck california blacktail be compared to a washington mossy timber blacktail?but yes the min score should be more closer to B&C...

[buck man]

Hard to say on this one. I hunted many years before my first Pope and young buck. Now I have 5 including a 162" whopper. I think however my first was the coolest. 125" is not much of a bar but many bow hunters never kill one . 260 " elk are quite common but how many average elk DIY bow hunters have killed one? Not many. I have killed 8 elk with a bow and one278" bull. I don't enter my trophys like you but I believe the minimums that pope and young set are probably pretty good as far as my trophy standards apply.

 Many hunters possibly yourself are better hunters than myself, and all you have to do is only enter your animals that make the Boone and Crockett club minimums. That way you have set the bar high. 

[RadSav]

For updated and additional clarification - minimums of some species have increased since the print of the 1987 book that I have.  For instance antelope has gone from 64 to 67, bison from 80 to 100, B/G and Q/L caribou from 300 to 325, mountain caribou from 265 to 300, cougar 13 to 13.5, blacktail 90 to 95 (that takes my 2X2 out) and others I'm sure.  So my extensive list of animals is now a much much shorter list.  I would have to say that is a good thing. 

I applaud the P&Y for making those changes on high entry extreme low minimum species.  If I were banking cash for seminars based upon my number of self promoting entries my check book would be hit hard.  And again I think that is a good thing.  Not far enough in my opinion, but we are making strides in the right direction.

I do support the P&Y club in the majority of what they do.  And I agree that funding of the club through entries does limit the rate at which we can increase minimums.  Especially when unlike other clubs the P&Y is exclusively archery tackle.  So there is a case for lower minimums and that I do understand.  But some, especially elk and antelope still sticks in my craw a little bit.

[boneaddict]

Thats interesting that they have increased.  I did not know that.  Shows you how much I pay attention.   I figured its much like our point system in this state.  Once in motion, there wasn't going to be much change without a massive uproar. 

[BULLBLASTER]

I can only speak for Whitetail and bear as they are the only p and y critters I've killed. I set my whity goals at 125 and have only killed 1. Bear was luck as it was my first bear and I was going to shoot any just so happened to be an 18-5/8 bear. Killed 2 since smaller than 16.
In my experience it isn't all that difficult to find 125+ whitetails but I haven't managed to kill many. Only hunted whiteys for 5 years so far tho.

[bullfisher]

Yes, the minimums should be raised. Doing so would also give P&Y a more respectable status. A P&Y class animal should at least raise an eyebrow.

[huntnphool]

 I don't care for P&Y or B&C's scoring methods and think SCI's is much better than both.

[bullfisher]

I don't care for P&Y or B&C's scoring methods and think SCI's is much better than both.

Agreed. I've always wondered about a water displacement method, which would measure only the volume of growth.

[huntnphool]

I don't care for P&Y or B&C's scoring methods and think SCI's is much better than both.

Agreed. I've always wondered about a water displacement method, which would measure only the volume of growth.

That would be a great way to do it too, everything grown counts.

[jess]

I like SCI scoring method and what they do for hunting in general,  but should your hard earned WILD fair chase trophy be compared to a high fence caged hunt animal? 

[carpsniperg2]

I like SCI scoring method and what they do for hunting in general,  but should your hard earned WILD fair chase trophy be compared to a high fence caged hunt animal?

I have been a member of sci and can tell you that is not always the case. A lot of them have separate categories for each style of hunting

[kentrek]

im sure itl keep going up,its a money themed idea so if its no longer "cool" to have your name in the books peaple will stop paying money to have there "trophy" listed..sales will drop..eye brows will be raised..then theyl fix the problem..which prety much means boosting the min score.

but what happens 35 years from now when theres twenty pages of 375 bulls,190 mule bucks,160 blacktails ? its gona get to the "boring to even look at point ? esp with how much peaple focus on only shooting for horns these days

[jess]

I didnt know that carpsniperg2, I looked through one of thier record books a few years ago and didnt remember seeing that.. I just know animals that dont qualify as fair chase for B&C and P&Y can be entered in SCI..

[carpsniperg2]

Yes some animals they do it for and some they don't.

Here is a list to there top 10's if you click the drop down bar you will see north american game and then you will see north american game "estate" they have most seperate and do not put them together

http://member.scifirstforhunters.org/members/RB/view_minimums.cfm

[carpsniperg2]

Take rocky mountain elk for example:

The north American record is like 438 for typical.

If you look at rocky mountain estate its like 518 for typical.

[huntnnw]

I don't care for P&Y or B&C's scoring methods and think SCI's is much better than both.

I do not agree with their systems knocking an animals score down due to imperfections in antler or horn configuration when is mother nature perfect? they are all unique and should be credited for everything they grow

Moose for example is a really bad...they get 0!! credit for any tine length..some of the biggest moose in North America dont even come close to the B@C because of their scoring system. This would be like scoring a bull elk..by counting points, 1 circumfrence measurement, a width and beam length..this does 0 justice to the true size of the animal

[boneaddict]

Moose do seem to get the shaft with BC and Pope.    Just this morning I was looking at a monster and he won't score very well compared to what "he should".   

[Battle Ready]

How about a rich guy category..and a poor guy with a family category! Just kidding of  course,  but it  would  be refreshing  to have a scoring system  that truly reflects true exceptional mature specimens. I too dislike deductions.. ..a perfect diamond  is nearly worthless.. but small imperfections created by nature makes them worth more.

[groundhog]

I agree that the minimums should be raised. I also like the idea of having a total displacement measurment.

[Todd_ID]

I think the definition of a "trophy class" animal has changed in your mind, and you would like to see the books changed to match your definition of trophy.  As I look through the minimum scores all I see are trophy animals at those minimums; yes, I consider your 2x2 blacktail that is 90+ inches to be a trophy with a bow.  Boone and Crockett Club maintains world-class animal records for all weapon types; Pope and Young maintains archery trophy animal records: two very different categories and thus very different minimums. 

I, too, have taken critters that meet the minimums but have never entered them.  My reason is that entering an animal costs money and that money can be gained by entering more and more animals instead of the books being used as a true record of trophy class animals which would only be obtained by free entry and free information distribution.  I salute them for what they've done for hunting, but I choose not to financially support them.

[boneaddict]

good discussion

[jess]

I agree bone this is a very good topic..

[huntnphool]

should your hard earned WILD fair chase trophy be compared to a high fence caged hunt animal?

Absolutely not, they can have a separate category.

[carpsniperg2]

They do for most, so that is not a issue

[RadSav]

I think the definition of a "trophy class" animal has changed in your mind, and you would like to see the books changed to match your definition of trophy.  As I look through the minimum scores all I see are trophy animals at those minimums; yes, I consider your 2x2 blacktail that is 90+ inches to be a trophy with a bow.  Boone and Crockett Club maintains world-class animal records for all weapon types; Pope and Young maintains archery trophy animal records: two very different categories and thus very different minimums. 

I, too, have taken critters that meet the minimums but have never entered them.  My reason is that entering an animal costs money and that money can be gained by entering more and more animals instead of the books being used as a true record of trophy class animals which would only be obtained by free entry and free information distribution.  I salute them for what they've done for hunting, but I choose not to financially support them.

I've been waiting for you to chime in!  I respect your opinion and was very interested in what you had to say.  But, "trophy class" has not changed in my mind.  A 90+ 2X2 might be a "trophy" in a 2X2 class of their own.  But I do not and never have believed they should ever be considered a shinning example of the species.

I do beleive a "Youth" catagory and a "2X2" blacktail and muledeer catagory would be something worthwhile to discuss. I like the way the Washington State record book has done it.

[Todd_ID]

I see your point about the 2x2's not needing to be part of the books or maybe a separate category.  I'm ok with that.  However, the youth category I don't think we need; what's the next step, a category for the rich, how about one for natives?  I think it should just stay one category for all hunters.  That way it can be a record of the animals instead of the hunters.  I'd really like to see them leave the hunter's name off the listings.  That would solve many of the problems in the industry.

[boneaddict]

I dislike the idea seperation for youth.  How about one for over 65,  and maybe one for left handed people.  I also don't like a two point one.  Its an "inferior" animal of the species, though I have seen some I wish I had shot or that I wish I would have shot.  There, we have discussed it. LOL

[jess]

I agree bone, a big two point should not be in the books although he is big he is still a "cull buck" and is not a exeptional animal of that species..