Observations from Okanogan Area?

[huntnphool]

I personally would like to see a  buck category hunt in Chelan and okanogan counties that went from the end of the season and ran ten days.  Give out 75 to 100 tags per unit.

See, they take it away long enough and people will be willing to pay for it. Soon you will see them go to a three season permit system.

[M_ray]

I personally would like to see a  buck category hunt in Chelan and okanogan counties that went from the end of the season and ran ten days.  Give out 75 to 100 tags per unit.

I would too! ... but not as a lottery or if I have to pay for something that was part of my usual General season tag originally!  I want what once was 

[bobcat]

I personally would like to see a  buck category hunt in Chelan and okanogan counties that went from the end of the season and ran ten days.  Give out 75 to 100 tags per unit.

I would too! ... but not as a lottery or if I have to pay for something that was part of my usual General season tag originally!  I want what once was 

OK, then I want the late muzzleloader season back that we used to have in the Alta and Chiwawa units. 

[huntnphool]

I personally would like to see a  buck category hunt in Chelan and okanogan counties that went from the end of the season and ran ten days.  Give out 75 to 100 tags per unit.

I would too! ... but not as a lottery or if I have to pay for something that was part of my usual General season tag originally!  I want what once was 

OK, then I want the late muzzleloader season back that we used to have in the Alta and Chiwawa units. 

Did they take away the Alta hunt this year?

[bobcat]

I personally would like to see a  buck category hunt in Chelan and okanogan counties that went from the end of the season and ran ten days.  Give out 75 to 100 tags per unit.

I would too! ... but not as a lottery or if I have to pay for something that was part of my usual General season tag originally!  I want what once was 

OK, then I want the late muzzleloader season back that we used to have in the Alta and Chiwawa units. 

Did they take away the Alta hunt this year?

No, it was probably about 20 years ago.

[huntnphool]

I personally would like to see a  buck category hunt in Chelan and okanogan counties that went from the end of the season and ran ten days.  Give out 75 to 100 tags per unit.

I would too! ... but not as a lottery or if I have to pay for something that was part of my usual General season tag originally!  I want what once was 

OK, then I want the late muzzleloader season back that we used to have in the Alta and Chiwawa units. 

Did they take away the Alta hunt this year?

No, it was probably about 20 years ago.

Oh I got ya, they took it away and made it a permit hunt?

[bobcat]

I personally would like to see a  buck category hunt in Chelan and okanogan counties that went from the end of the season and ran ten days.  Give out 75 to 100 tags per unit.

I would too! ... but not as a lottery or if I have to pay for something that was part of my usual General season tag originally!  I want what once was 

OK, then I want the late muzzleloader season back that we used to have in the Alta and Chiwawa units. 

Did they take away the Alta hunt this year?

No, it was probably about 20 years ago.

Oh I got ya, they took it away and made it a permit hunt?

Right.

[huntnphool]

I personally would like to see a  buck category hunt in Chelan and okanogan counties that went from the end of the season and ran ten days.  Give out 75 to 100 tags per unit.

I would too! ... but not as a lottery or if I have to pay for something that was part of my usual General season tag originally!  I want what once was 

OK, then I want the late muzzleloader season back that we used to have in the Alta and Chiwawa units. 

Did they take away the Alta hunt this year?

No, it was probably about 20 years ago.

Oh I got ya, they took it away and made it a permit hunt?

Right.

Actually no........it aint right!

[boneaddict]

I used to sit in that pocket(head of a particular canyon), Phool knows just where I am tlaking about.  THANKSGIVING DAY!   Alta late bowseason.   MAN THAT was a kick.   You'd see so many nice bucks.   I go there now to photograph but don't see nearly as much. 

[MtnMuley]

I would do the same, but in the Chiliwist.  But, that was before in-line muzzleloaders, and "real" compound bows.

[Ridgerunner]

The reality is they aren't going to give us those days back even though they essentially promised that back in the day, that is why I'd take a limited permit hunt, it's better than nothing which is what we have now.

[bearpaw]

The reality is they aren't going to give us those days back even though they essentially promised that back in the day, that is why I'd take a limited permit hunt, it's better than nothing which is what we have now.

It would be poor management to give us the season lenghts that we used to have without improving the herds. They have to give us less or the resource will suffer. The only way to more opprtunity is through better predator control and providing winter range or winter feeding in the areas with little winter range due to development of one type or another. 

If we control predators better and provide food one way or another in winter to make up for development, then we will have more animals on the landscape.

[andrebeergog]

We hunted the 204 off highway 21 all last week and there was more bear and coyote sign than we have ever seen.  One of the hunting parties down the road also spotted a wolf no more than 2-3 miles from our camp.  We have seen more bear and coyotes in the last 2-3 years than we have seen in the previous 25 years!  I am not sure if the sign we are seeing is coyote or wolf.  I am assuming it is coyote judging by the size but can't be sure.  We did ok, we harvested 2 deer and 1 cougar. 

[muleyguy]

under the current population dynamics, predators, APR restrictions, and constantly shrinking winter range, the mule deer herd could not take a lengthing of the season as the past had without serious consequences.

There are nuggets of truth in a lot of the statements made, but, the whole spectrum needs to be looked at.

IMHO here are my thoughts:

The deer numbers are not as healthy as they have historically been, period.  Looking at deer numbers in November, during the rut, after weather has initiated the migration is not an accurate way to judge what is going on.   We have a constantly shrinking winter range area and much higher predator numbers, this will tend to congregate the deer into the better winter range areas.  This can make it seem like certain areas are "full of deer" during these certain times.  Predator numbers are most certainly higher then they have historically been, and this too changes deer and elk behaviour.  Certain areas of Montana were wolves are prevalent have seen a complete change in elk migration patterns;  for example:  in areas of western montana, the elk now tend to migrate from the high country down to the Valley floors much sooner then they ever have;  at the first hint of snow in Mid october the herds in high predator areas are migrating enmasse to farmland on the valley floor because the elk are safer in these areas;  there can literally be thousands of elk all herded up in these areas and it "looks" like there is massive numbers of elk, when it reality, the herd is no stronger then it used to be, and probably weaker in numbers, it is just that predators have changed the elk behaviour and congregated them.

My point with this is that it can be a dangerous thing to judge the health of our mule deer based on what we see in mid november;  there are a whole host of reasons why the numbers could appear to be good, but in reality are not.  Anecdotal evidence is pretty overwhelming that herd numbers are at low levels relative to historical numbers.

I do agree completely with lengthing the season out though, just in a different way then most here would like..........the points about shortening the season and it congregating the hunters and forcing poor escapement are spot on!!   The problem is, and I hate to continually bring this up, is that with APR's that is the legacy of them..........they force earlier October seasons because a 3 pt min rule focuses the harvest on the mature animals;  then, once you force 75,000 hunters into a 9 day season, the buck escapement becomes non-existent.  The ONLY mature mule deer bucks left are the migrators because  they are not in the area during the general season.  If they were, they too would get hammered because they are the target harvest group with a 3 pt min rule!

We are in a severe management rut in this state.......we are trying to rely on APR's to do something they are not capable of doing, and that is "recover the herds";  but instead, what they do is put is in this downward spiral:  Earlier seasons, shorter seasons, more people, jammed into fewer days, poorer buck escapement, which makes for shorter seasons, earlier seasons, and on and on......I mean its not working!  How many years of this failed management scheme do we have to go through???  so, pretty soon we are going to have 75,000 hunters jammed into a 6 day season all shooting 5 pt or better mule deer bucks??   That is where we are headed.......

Here are some suggestions to help things:

1.  Protect the doe population;  period;  no antlerless opportunities at all until population objectives are reached
2.  Continue to hammer away at the dept about the need for increased predator seasons, control, etc
3.  Work on winter range habitat, winter range protection, etc  long term project, but, winter range is the key
4.  Get rid of the APR's
5.  Lengthen the season back out to include  the first week of Nov. to spread the hunter pressure out;
6.  Get rid of the late buck permit tags
7.  Sorry, but there is no free lunch in life........you will have to reduce the number of hunters in the field...........reduce the number of hunters by 1/3 rd through a rotating draw system;  you basically would get to hunt 2 out of every 3 yrs.  And.....you would have to raise the tag fees by 1/3 to keep the dept properly funded.


The primary problem from a management perspective in this state is that it is basically impossible to have your cake and eat it too.........you can't provide everybody the ability to hunt unrestricted and for long seasons without the resource suffering. 

I know some of you want to believe this, but, there is no grand conspiracy going on within the WDFW where the number of deer are actually wonderful, but, they are forcing us into this early, short season for some reason.   The biologists know very well that if they lengthen the season back out with no tag restrictions, with an APR, that it will be disasterous.

So, we get these management techniques like APR's and earlier and shorter seasons to try and let everybody hunt without any restrictions on tag numbers.  Its failed policy........our deer numbers are not going radically up anytime soon;  our deer hunter numbers are not going down radically anytime soon;  we do have trending down deer hunter numbers, but, days in the field per hunter are also going up, so the pressure is really the same or even higher.  you cannot look at deer hunter numbers alone;  you have to look at total days afield to accurately judge the pressure.

There are long term trends in place that are going to limit our deer herds for well into the future;  shrinking winter range, increasing predators, etc  We have to decide how we are going to split this shrinking or stagnant resource up and what kind of experience we want when we are in the field.

Personally, I would gladly give up 1 out of 3 yrs hunting in this state to get 2 out of 3 yrs were I am not having to deal with a pumpkin on every ridge, buck populations and age structure of the buck population are decent, I have a long season were I can hunt when my schedule allows, hunter pressure is much lowered and, I can spend quality time in the field.

Honestly, we can have that experience in this State with just a very small sacrifice on our parts, and that is to just give up 1 yr out of 3..............

[MtnMuley]

Good post muleyguy.  Thanks for taking the time to type that up.