Elk going to waste in TRUE spike areas

[doyourtime89]

  This TRUE SPIKE restriction on a couple areas is ridiculous I don’t understand what they are thinking they are going to accomplish with it.  What is the big difference between a 1X1 to a 1X2 or even a 1X3…come on.  I have family members that rifle hunt the Colockum every ever year and  every couple years my dad and I will make a drive over to the Colockum to visit our family’s rifle camp.  We made a trip yesterday and not as many camps as I thought and only seen 2 elk hanging.  Non in our family’s camp.  They did say there seen a few taken.  But what is really messed up is the amount of 1X2’s and 1X3’s they have found shot and left to waste from people thinking and/or hoping it was a true spike and just shooting and then finding out its not a true spike and they just walk away from it.  In the last 3 years they have seen 7 (2 this year).   And that is just what they have found.  So just think if you were to get a total count from all they hunters in these true spike areas.  There are TONS of elk just going to waste.  I know it ultimately falls on the hunter and if wish these guys would get caught, because it does fall on the hunter to make 100% sure of what you are shooting.  But I just think there are way to many elk going to waste because of this rule.  While driving up to our family’s camp we seen two different herds of elk.  One heard had about 40 cows and 1 bull a 2X2 and we really had to look him over to see he was a 2X2 the splits were really small and way at the top.  The other groups was about 50 cows with a 1X2 and same thing the right side had a second point way at the tip and really small.  I will bet they don’t make it through the season but go to waste too.  I just think it’s a worthless rule…..sorry just had to vent a bit after hearing about all the elk going to waste.   

[romaknows]

I have heard of this same thing from alot of people hunting the true spike gmu's.

[Fl0und3rz]

Having hunted a true spike unit, I'd have to agree.  It's damn near impossible to determine sometimes.  It would probably be better to make these permit areas.

[hillbilli]

I see the true spike rule as an entrapment rule.. they write a rule that is not about the herd, only about making it very easy to entrap hunters, as it can be very easy to shoot an animal that even at bow ranges appears legal, and is not.. therefore I will not hunt in the 'true spike' areas...

[HornHoarder]

Yes, absolutely rediculous rule.

[Wildsau]

Any bull with a 1xanything more than a one, should be fair game.  It is a spike on one side and becasue it has more than 1 on the other is more than enough reason to remove it from the gene-pool.  We want to keep good strong herds and to leave one who can't grow good racks, in the gene-pool is the worst game management there is.

Gene-pool culing has been going on in Europe for as far back as anyone can remember, and they have soem excellent trophy racks on the Red Deer, Fallow Deer, Roe Deer, and Sitka Deer.  Proof that this type of "harvesting" works.

[RifleRidge]

Yes, absolutely rediculous rule.

 

[huntergreg]

I have been hunting with my father and son in the colockum and have found 5 dead 1x2 and 1 cow. Some of the 1x2 i don't see how people cant see the forks. Some of them are 4in forks. I also found one that was a 3x2. It was still kicking on the ground. I hate to see it. People just need to make sure what it is before they shoot. IF YOUR NOT SURE LET IT GO!!!! THERE ARE A LOT OF STUPID HUNTERS UP THERE JUST SHOOTING ELK AND THEN GOING TO SEE WHAT IT IS AND THEN WALKING AWAY IF IT HAS FORKS.     I dont like the fact that if you shoot a 1x2 in these areas and turn yourself in you only get an $80 ticket and a notched tag. They need to hammer these people just as if they were poaching!!!  If you don't like the TRUE SPIKE restriction DONT HUNT THERE!!!!

[stickbuck]

Any bull with a 1xanything more than a one, should be fair game.  It is a spike on one side and becasue it has more than 1 on the other is more than enough reason to remove it from the gene-pool.  We want to keep good strong herds and to leave one who can't grow good racks, in the gene-pool is the worst game management there is.

Gene-pool culing has been going on in Europe for as far back as anyone can remember, and they have soem excellent trophy racks on the Red Deer, Fallow Deer, Roe Deer, and Sitka Deer.  Proof that this type of "harvesting" works.

I don't agree with the true spike regulations. However, I would have to disagree with you. Bull elk with spikes do not mean they have bad genetics. Just my two cents.

[RifleRidge]

I have been hunting with my father and son in the colockum and have found 5 dead 1x2 and 1 cow. Some of the 1x2 i don't see how people cant see the forks. Some of them are 4in forks. I also found one that was a 3x2. It was still kicking on the ground. I hate to see it. People just need to make sure what it is before they shoot. IF YOUR NOT SURE LET IT GO!!!! THERE ARE A LOT OF STUPID HUNTERS UP THERE JUST SHOOTING ELK AND THEN GOING TO SEE WHAT IT IS AND THEN WALKING AWAY IF IT HAS FORKS.     I dont like the fact that if you shoot a 1x2 in these areas and turn yourself in you only get an $80 ticket and a notched tag. They need to hammer these people just as if they were poaching!!!  If you don't like the TRUE SPIKE restriction DONT HUNT THERE!!!!

 

[Bigbuckoholic]

Any bull with a 1xanything more than a one, should be fair game.  It is a spike on one side and becasue it has more than 1 on the other is more than enough reason to remove it from the gene-pool.  We want to keep good strong herds and to leave one who can't grow good racks, in the gene-pool is the worst game management there is.

Gene-pool culing has been going on in Europe for as far back as anyone can remember, and they have soem excellent trophy racks on the Red Deer, Fallow Deer, Roe Deer, and Sitka Deer.  Proof that this type of "harvesting" works.

I don't agree with the true spike regulations. However, I would have to disagree with you. Bull elk with spikes do not mean they have bad genetics. Just my two cents.

[Kowsrule30]

My wife's uncle has a camp in 328 with @ 12 guys.... He came back Tuesday for work and informed me their group found 4 dead... 3 1x2, 1 1x3... He said all would be really hard to tell even with really good glass and some time to glass in the open... Just really small points that were barely legal or questionable.... I will not hunt in a true spike area....

[bear hunter]

I don't hunt true spike area anymore.

[Fl0und3rz]

If you don't like the TRUE SPIKE restriction DONT HUNT THERE!!!!

Thanks for the invite. I'll take you up on it. But that does not diminish the reality and concerns that people have over proper game management. Slob hunters are a reality, as are honest mistakes. The true spike rule makes both more damaging to management goals.

[doyourtime89]

But that does not diminish the reality and concerns that people have over proper game management. Slob hunters are a reality, as are honest mistakes. The true spike rule makes both more damaging to management goals.
[/quote]

 

[Jonathan_S]

My wife's uncle has a camp in 328 with @ 12 guys.... He came back Tuesday for work and informed me their group found 4 dead... 3 1x2, 1 1x3... He said all would be really hard to tell even with really good glass and some time to glass in the open... Just really small points that were barely legal or questionable.... I will not hunt in a true spike area....

Sounds like a lot of people don't know what the heck they're doing.  If I shot a 1x2, I would turn myself in and pay $80

It's a bum deal but it's better than a tarnished image and 250 lbs of steaks left to rot in the woods.

[Curly]

The True spike area really should go to permit only, but hunters whine and complain when that is brought up so they came up with the stupid true spike idea.  Hopefully there will be enough complaints about true spike that they go to permit only.......

[sled]

I have been hunting with my father and son in the colockum and have found 5 dead 1x2 and 1 cow. Some of the 1x2 i don't see how people cant see the forks. Some of them are 4in forks. I also found one that was a 3x2. It was still kicking on the ground. I hate to see it. People just need to make sure what it is before they shoot. IF YOUR NOT SURE LET IT GO!!!! THERE ARE A LOT OF STUPID HUNTERS UP THERE JUST SHOOTING ELK AND THEN GOING TO SEE WHAT IT IS AND THEN WALKING AWAY IF IT HAS FORKS.     I dont like the fact that if you shoot a 1x2 in these areas and turn yourself in you only get an $80 ticket and a notched tag. They need to hammer these people just as if they were poaching!!!  If you don't like the TRUE SPIKE restriction DONT HUNT THERE!!!!

[coachcw]

true spike rule is total bs ! should be brow tine bulls or not that simple .

[saylean]

Its tough to ensure a true spike even during archery season. Rifle hunting the true spike area, I am sure there are tons that are wasted.

The true spike rule is a crock of Bs.

[Rooster1981]

True Spike is a terrible rule, and was made  that way for one reason. It is entrapment for the sole reason to make money. For guys like me age 31 that have hunted 329 for 18 years and my family that have been hunting in 329 since the sixties, we have seen many changes in this area. When it changed to spike only we saw tones of 2x2's left for dead over the years. My camp was very critical about identification and we shot many 1x2s over the years until the True spike rule change. I boycotted the unit in 09 and returned in 10 to harvest a true spike. In 2011 I made my first critical error as a hunter & hopefully my last. I shot a 1x2 and turned my self in. The game warden couldn't have been nicer, and told me these things happen and its not that big of a deal. He checked out my rifle went to the kill site took my tag we drug the bull about 1/4 to the wardens truck and loaded it whole. I was written a 80.00 ticket and went on my way . I thought They were going to throw the book at me and I couldn't believe how easily I got off. But as a result nearly fifty years of hunting tradition came to a end with my mistake and my family will never hunt up there again, or as long as  true spike remains.

[turbo]

Same argument for 3pt or better with deer. I personally have seen over 8 dead 2 points. Dumb!!

The problem is the policy. If you make a mistake you should be able to report it, pay a fine and keep the animal with a 3 strikes, and you're out rule. Washington is a stupid state! We f-up more than we fix.

[billythekidrock]

True Spike is a terrible rule, and was made  that way for one reason. It is entrapment for the sole reason to make money. For guys like me age 31 that have hunted 329 for 18 years and my family that have been hunting in 329 since the sixties, we have seen many changes in this area. When it changed to spike only we saw tones of 2x2's left for dead over the years. My camp was very critical about identification and we shot many 1x2s over the years until the True spike rule change. I boycotted the unit in 09 and returned in 10 to harvest a true spike. In 2011 I made my first critical error as a hunter & hopefully my last. I shot a 1x2 and turned my self in. The game warden couldn't have been nicer, and told me these things happen and its not that big of a deal. He checked out my rifle went to the kill site took my tag we drug the bull about 1/4 to the wardens truck and loaded it whole. I was written a 80.00 ticket and went on my way . I thought They were going to throw the book at me and I couldn't believe how easily I got off. But as a result nearly fifty years of hunting tradition came to a end with my mistake and my family will never hunt up there again, or as long as  true spike remains.

Thanks for sharing your experience and perspective.

[steeleywhopper]

What the hell kind of dimwit science did they use to come up with the need for "True Spike" anyway?
EXTREMELY STUPID RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[j_h_nimrod]

I have been hunting with my father and son in the colockum and have found 5 dead 1x2 and 1 cow. Some of the 1x2 i don't see how people cant see the forks. Some of them are 4in forks. I also found one that was a 3x2. It was still kicking on the ground. I hate to see it. People just need to make sure what it is before they shoot. IF YOUR NOT SURE LET IT GO!!!! THERE ARE A LOT OF STUPID HUNTERS UP THERE JUST SHOOTING ELK AND THEN GOING TO SEE WHAT IT IS AND THEN WALKING AWAY IF IT HAS FORKS.     I dont like the fact that if you shoot a 1x2 in these areas and turn yourself in you only get an $80 ticket and a notched tag. They need to hammer these people just as if they were poaching!!!  If you don't like the TRUE SPIKE restriction DONT HUNT THERE!!!!

Can't say I agree with all said but THERE ARE JUST A LOT OF STUPID PEOPLE CALLING THEMSELVES HUNTERS AND CARRYING GUNS IN THE WOODS. If everyone was the hunter we learned we should be in hunters ed or at the feet of a hunting father, relative, or friend there would be no need for half the rules on the books, a thousand gamies, and I would not have to wear that damned blaze orange in the field. To damn many idiots out there anymore but you have to take the bad with the good.

I almost thought I shot an illegal buck this year and it was the worst feeling. When I jumped it at 30 yards I took a good sight through the scope and saw what I was sure were 3 solid points on one side so pulled down and dropped it. When I walked up on it I saw only a good fork with with a small sub legal third point and just about had a conniption. When I finally put a hand on the rack and gave it a turn the third legal point I had seen came out of the dust and I was vastly relieved. I do know that if that third point had not been there I would have still taken the carcass but do not know if I would have turned myself into the gamines or not. Wasting the meat is about the worst thing you can do and that never crossed my mind.

I do not see any true reason for a true spike rule but the game managers don't always make sense or follow valid scientific reasoning. There is as much opinion and personal preference involved in regulations as any real fact or truth. But the rules are what they are and if you are caught breaking them your panties can get in a twist quick. Knowing the way this state works so far it would not surprise me if this was a regulation put in place to generate a bit of violation revenue, it sounds like the herds in these locations are strong enough that a true spike reg is unneeded.

Don't really know where I am going with all this but just some thoughts.

[martin1]

i hunt 329 and its the only unit i hunt for elk and ive seen quite a few elk get wasted. also hard to id and elk for true spike especially if its over 200 yards. about the only way is to set up a spotting scope when they are sky lined for a while then make your move after they leave the sky line. even then its still hard to tell some times   

[Kowsrule30]

My wife's uncle has a camp in 328 with @ 12 guys.... He came back Tuesday for work and informed me their group found 4 dead... 3 1x2, 1 1x3... He said all would be really hard to tell even with really good glass and some time to glass in the open... Just really small points that were barely legal or questionable.... I will not hunt in a true spike area....

Sounds like a lot of people don't know what the heck they're doing.  If I shot a 1x2, I would turn myself in and pay $80

It's a bum deal but it's better than a tarnished image and 250 lbs of steaks left to rot in the woods.

Then you might want to go to these units and start a petition....      Maybe more will turn themselves in...

[Rainier10]

The only bonus I can see to the true spike rule is from experience this year in the 328.  Out of a herd of 300 elk and 30 guys shooting only 13 true spikes were taken opening weekend, they left a handfull of 1x2, 2x2 and 1x3 to get bigger next year.  If it would have been 1x whatever, they would have shot every one in the group and had no recruitment of year old bulls to make it through to the next year.

 I think it is a tough rule and sucks that some people don't take the time to ensure it is a true spike and therefore some go to waste.  But after hearing about what happened this year it is good to know that at least some 1x2 and 1x3s are getting through even if a few are going to waste due to poor hunting.

Just my 

[Curly]

Does a guy who self reports himself really get to keep the meat?  I've heard that, but I wonder how true that is?

If that was the case, wouldn't there be guys willing to just shoot a 1x2, self report and pay an extra $80. 

[KyleMB123]

If you find an elk or deer that has been shot dead and is not a legal animal can you at least take the meat, or will WDFW frame you for poaching if they catch you?

[Curly]

I don't think I'd go so far as to say WDFW would frame you, but yeah you would get written up.  Just like road kill is not legal to pick up. 

[Rooster1981]

Does a guy who self reports himself really get to keep the meat?  I've heard that, but I wonder how true that is?

If that was the case, wouldn't there be guys willing to just shoot a 1x2, self report and pay an extra $80. 

No you do not get to keep any part of the animal, the elk if recoverable close to a road is taken to Yakima and processed to feed the homeless. 

[Red Ryder]

I was in the Colockum last weekend. I was on a small herd that turned out to be a 6X6 Bull with 6 cows. It had taken me a while to get within range and I was losing light. I was hoping a spike might step out from somewhere. I was glassing the elk and it finally got to the point where I really couldn't distinguish antlers. At that point, had a true spike stepped out there, I couldn't really be sure whether it was a legal elk or not. I called off the hunt at that point and headed back up the canyon before I lost too much more light. About a minute after I turned back, someone started taking long distance shots at the elk. There were 3 shots with a long echo, a pause, followed by 3 more shots. I think they were too far away to hit anything. It was really a surprise that someone would lob shots far away in low light like that. I could see where elk get wasted out there.

[Bob33]

If you find an elk or deer that has been shot dead and is not a legal animal can you at least take the meat, or will WDFW frame you for poaching if they catch you?

Legally, you cannot keep any dead animal you did not kill.

[JLS]

If you find an elk or deer that has been shot dead and is not a legal animal can you at least take the meat, or will WDFW frame you for poaching if they catch you?

Legally, you cannot keep any dead animal you did not kill.

And thus they would not be framing you, because you would actually be committing a violation.

[howlow]

I know the true spike makes it hard for the hunters   but the herd numbers have increased drasticly since the rule    thats why we got cow tags in those areas!!! and I think they increased the bull tags also

[Humptulips]

Same argument for 3pt or better with deer. I personally have seen over 8 dead 2 points. Dumb!!

The problem is the policy. If you make a mistake you should be able to report it, pay a fine and keep the animal with a 3 strikes, and you're out rule. Washington is a stupid state! We f-up more than we fix.

 

[Rooster1981]

I know the true spike makes it hard for the hunters   but the herd numbers have increased drasticly since the rule    thats why we got cow tags in those areas!!! and I think they increased the bull tags also

The only reason there is a cow hunt on the colockum is to raise the bull to cow ratio. Less cows = More bulls to cows + better ratio on paper.

Spike only started in 1994 by 1996 we were seeing 15-20 bulls per 100 cows and this was very exiting.  By 2000-2001 we were seeing a large decline of the number of satellite bulls and there were just a bunch of old heard bulls running around with spikes. By 07-08 there were very few big bulls left at all  most of the old bulls were long dead from old age and the number of spike's were on the decline as well.

Then in 2009 two things happened, the Yakima Indian nation received hunting rights for these two units and true spike was born. A coincidence not likely.

So starting on 2007 two years prior of the true spike rule change here are the hunting harvest numbers for modern firearm seasons. there is no muzzy season for these units and a very limited number of archery hunters. watch as the success rates drop by over 50% in only four years.
                 
                                 Bulls         Antlerless       Success Ratio    #of hunters
2007- unit 328        126               25                      7.8%            1931                      Old spike only
          unit-329        120              47                     13.2%          1265          Compare to 2011

2008- unit-328        145               29                        n/a               n/a           compare to 2010
          unit-329          95                18                         n/a               n/a

2009- unit-328        107               22                        6.5%           1997                   first year of true spike
          unit-329          75               19                        8.8%           1068   

2010-unit-328          57                21                        4.7%           1580
         unit-329          74                13                        8.8%               990

2011- unit-328         89                13                        6.4%           1591
          unit-329         46                  7                        5.7%           928

As a end result the bull to cow ratio is at 4.5 bulls to 100 cows with a spike bull mortality rate of 82%. Something needs to change soon.

[Blacktail Sniper]

If you find an elk or deer that has been shot dead and is not a legal animal can you at least take the meat, or will WDFW frame you for poaching if they catch you?

Legally, you cannot keep any dead animal you did not kill.

And thus they would not be framing you, because you would actually be committing a violation.

Not correct if you decide to take possession of it and get caught, you have committed an illegal act.  In order to "Frame you" it would have to be their idea/suggestion that you commit an illegal act.   

Taking the meat/carcass from an animal you found but did not harvest yourself would be at the minimum Illegal possesion of game meat/animal.

[C-Money]

I let 3 1x2s go opening day in the true spike area. I noticed way fewer camps. Still seemed to be a good number of hunters. I saw 4 true spikes that were harvested. I sure enjoy elk hunting up there, and would hate to see permit only.

[big wood]

Basically the state is getting what they want. revenue and hardly any elk being killed. besides we have to build the heards up for the wolves to wipe em' out.

[CedarPants]

Basically the state is getting what they want. revenue and hardly any elk being killed. besides we have to build the heards up for the wolves to wipe em' out.

Comments in this thread would seem to suggest that "hardly any elk being killed" isn't what is taking place

[big wood]

A lot more branched antlered bulls are seen than true spikes being shot. time to add more quality elk permits or change to brow tine bull or better like Montana. They dont seem to have any problems

[stuckalot]

The biggest problem with true spike, compared to say a 3 point restriction is it is much easier to count 3 points and verify something you see, than be absolutely certain of something you don't see!

Stupid rule, does however decrease overall harvest I believe.

[big wood]

exactly,well said

[CedarPants]

Decreases overall harvest, or overall reported harvest?

Honest question, not trying to argue.  This thread seems to indicate a lot of animals being shot and left to rot, which doesn't seem to indicate a reduction in harvest (just a reduction in reported harvest).

I don't know, I don't hunt there.  Just trying to get someone's take on things

[big wood]

I am not trying to argue as well cedar but our hunting heritage is dwindling. our elk herds are doing well and success rates need to go up to generate interest in younger hunters as well as hunters who have given up. I dont hunt there either I hunt Montana, Idaho and west side wa every year. I just would like to see a better management from the state.

[stuckalot]

Cedar, I can't say for sure, but I believe that there are a lot of animals "mistakenly" taken in spike only units as well, or 3 point areas for that matter.  Many hunters do pass on 1x2's 1x3's etc. that would otherwise have been taken, and I believe most people will agree that there has been fewer hunters in the true spike areas since the change.  The wild card I believe is the native harvest in these areas, has the true spike rule changed that harvest rate? I don't know.