Possible new AKC Grand Field Champion title.....

[Cascade_fisher]

Well it's official.  There is now a GFC and GAFC title in the AKC trial world.  Any dog wearing the GFC title had to achieve the title in 1 hour stakes......   I think it's a great idea since it will separate the Fc's who can run for an hour vs those FC's who can't.

I think it's stupid AKC BS and by no means do FC dogs "hunt and find birds at the master hunter level" MOST of the time - there are some.   

[jetjockey]

If they don't hunt and find birds at the Mh test level, how do they hunt?

[wildweeds]

Its a money making scam is all it is,they could have just ammended the FC qualifications to 1 hour wins.Well conditioned dogs that are in their prime from 2-8 years old can go the hour with little effort.

[jetjockey]

If they do that Wild, then every trial would be one hour braces, and they would force clubs to change the way they operate. As it stands now, absolutely nothing has to change.  If a club doesn't want to run a 1 hour trial, then they don't have too.  It's a personal decision by each club, the AKC isn't forcing anyone to do something they don't want to, and they aren't changing the requirements for the FC title.  All they are doing is adding a higher title for dogs and clubs that want to run 1 hr trials.  What's wrong with that?

[jetjockey]

Cascade...  With these changes the AKC is also adding a 1 hr National walking Gun Dog Championship.  Among other qualifications, any AKC pointing dog who is a MH qualifies.  This year it's on the east coast but it is going to rotate like the HB NGDC.  When it comes out west, you should take a couple MH dogs and run it.  Prove to us that FC's can't find birds like a MH titles dog can.

[Cascade_fisher]

Both titled dogs will find birds well, some MHs range nearly as far as an FC some stay close.  Neither should require any hacking but it is much more common in Field Trials with the handler yoddling or whatever BS you want to call that.  That is a DQ in a MH as would be any whistle work.  All MHs also have to retrieve to hand and the handler can not move one foot like basketball.  Some breed FCs retrieve but in an combined they do not.  Some FCs have never had a bird in their mouth!  FCs also can win and win nationals without ever backing another dog.  It's just my opinion but MHs are much better personal hunting dogs and are actually able to be hunted whereas many FCs are just titled kennel dogs.  I hunted with the owner of the 2012 Amateur  National Champion English Setter this weekend and he agreed    I've also had this conversation with a 12x National Champion in various breeds.  I would say that is my  but it is probably a nickels worth.

[jetjockey]

I would agree with some of that.  I wouldn't agree that "singing" to a dog is B.S. however.  Singing is great when the dog is close enough to hear your voice.  It allows the dog to still handle out front just by the handlers voice, even when the dog is out of sight. A whistle is also important because a good field trial dog should be out of voice range a lot of the time. My dog often makes 800-1000 yard casts in trails and training.  Those are true backed up by the Garmin 800+ yard casts.  Here is no way a dog can hear your voice at that range, so you use a whistle.   However, not all FC's are the same.  Some get finished running Gun Dog and some get finished running All Age.  And all the talk about Trial dogs not being good hunting dogs is totally crap in my opinion.  After the ABC GD Nationals in Michigan this year my trainer had some days off.  They hooked up with a few locals who invited them out to go grouse hunting.   He took 3 of his trial dogs (one being an awesome big running AA dog who has only ever really been a trial dog) and they went out after Michigan grouse.  According to the locals they hunted with, they had never hunted over better "hunting" dogs. My trainer has had some luck as well.  He has won the ABC Nationals, the ABC GD Nationals, and he placed dogs in the only AKC GD Nationals he's ever run.  And that was against 118 of the best AKC pointing dogs in the country.  Almost every dog who ran was an FC, and i believe there were over 20 NFC's.  He can foot hunt every single one of his dogs, because he trains off foot at times.  At the end of the day, they are all bred to do the same thing, hunt birds.  Thats it!  They all come from the same mold.  And any of them can be trained to do whatever we want them to do.  Whether if be a meat dog, trial dog, or MH level dog.  They just need to be exposed to it.

[Cascade_fisher]

You never mentioned retrieve to hand...  I also don't care what some locals from Michigan think about the dogs, no offense but previously they could have been hunting over chihuahuas 
I agree with you that they are bred to hunt birds and most do it well.  The yodeling is still BS.  I carry a whistle, as everyone should, so the dogs can hear you in windy or distant situations (have to train them to this, of course) when required which, IMO, shouldn't be very often.

[AspenBud]

Coverdog is not AKC sanctioned to the best of my knowledge.

Plenty of dogs bred from lines used in that venue are full time foot hunting dogs including most of the dogs used in competition. AA blood runs thick in a lot of those dogs.

If retrieving is important, well, that's what the NSTRA is for.

"Singing" or whistling is a personal preference, but in the woods it's very easy for a dog to get turned around and lost when at range. Singing gives a smart dog a reference point as it seeks out birds. It's not really about handling the so much as it is letting the dog know where to find you.

In real world hunting the key variable in how many birds a dog finds comes down to the guy driving the truck. Which type of trial dog or hunt test dog makes a better hunter really doesn't matter if the person using the dog doesn't know how to hunt their quarry or bother to burn some gas and wear out some boot leather.

[Stilly bay]

"Singing" or whistling is a personal preference, but in the woods it's very easy for a dog to get turned around and lost when at range. Singing gives a smart dog a reference point as it seeks out birds. It's not really about handling the so much as it is letting the dog know where to find you.

it also lets the birds know where you are, of course you would have to be pursuing wild birds to be concerned with that.

[Cascade_fisher]

"Singing" or whistling is a personal preference, but in the woods it's very easy for a dog to get turned around and lost when at range. Singing gives a smart dog a reference point as it seeks out birds. It's not really about handling the so much as it is letting the dog know where to find you.

it also lets the birds know where you are, of course you would have to be pursuing wild birds to be concerned with that.

Not too many Field Trials are taking place in the woods either although some do use wild birds.

[AspenBud]

Coverdog is run exclusively on ruffed grouse and all of those guys sing.

There are some differing schools of thought on noise and grouse. Strapped for time so the short story is a lot of guys would tell you they get more spooked when consistent noise (like a beeper or bell) changes or stops.

[Stilly bay]

"Singing" or whistling is a personal preference, but in the woods it's very easy for a dog to get turned around and lost when at range. Singing gives a smart dog a reference point as it seeks out birds. It's not really about handling the so much as it is letting the dog know where to find you.

it also lets the birds know where you are, of course you would have to be pursuing wild birds to be concerned with that.

Not too many Field Trials are taking place in the woods either although some do use wild birds.

which is a shame. besides in the cover dog circuits there are a lot of MH and FC that will never hunt wild birds... I understand all the work that goes into the dog but if they don't have any wild bird skills or any way to judge how they handle wild birds what good are they? they might as well just point paper towels with bird scent on them in some of these trials.  I don't care how stylish a dog is, if it bumps birds -or because pen raised birds are involved it gets way too close- then something isn't stirring the Kool aid.
I watched a couple MH's last summer and they were stylish and amazing to watch but they damn near stood on top of the training birds, and their owners were totally fine with it and quick to talk S about some really solid "meat" dogs that were working nearby. I don't get it.

Coverdog is run exclusively on ruffed grouse and all of those guys sing.

There are some differing schools of thought on noise and grouse. Strapped for time so the short story is a lot of guys would tell you they get more spooked when consistent noise (like a beeper or bell) changes or stops.

Im sure it also has a lot to do with the time of year these cover dog events take place. all I know is if you get a couple guys hollering away in the grouse woods in late winter when the leaves are down, the birds are going to clear out.  of course im sure you can get away with a lot more noise if your dog is rolling 200 yards out, the grouse is going to be more worried about the dog that has just locked on to its position... but try that singing with late season pheasants out in the open and tell me how it works out.

sorry for the highjacking....

[wildweeds]

I'll sing when needed but otherwise keep it shut,whistles annoy me which is why I prefer the singing,sing to get em to turn and let em go.Did a canned chuk hunt today with my yearlings and what a surprise,all of them handled nicely,pointed staunchly and one pup let me flush all  four of his birds and he retrieved them all to hand.I've done very little training wise  with the whole nine yards.Ran them checkcordless and used the old timers point em or knock em method,not one bird knocked today.Going to be nice little huntin dogs.

[jetjockey]

"Singing" or whistling is a personal preference, but in the woods it's very easy for a dog to get turned around and lost when at range. Singing gives a smart dog a reference point as it seeks out birds. It's not really about handling the so much as it is letting the dog know where to find you.

it also lets the birds know where you are, of course you would have to be pursuing wild birds to be concerned with that.

Not too many Field Trials are taking place in the woods either although some do use wild birds.

which is a shame. besides in the cover dog circuits there are a lot of MH and FC that will never hunt wild birds... I understand all the work that goes into the dog but if they don't have any wild bird skills or any way to judge how they handle wild birds what good are they? they might as well just point paper towels with bird scent on them in some of these trials.  I don't care how stylish a dog is, if it bumps birds -or because pen raised birds are involved it gets way too close- then something isn't stirring the Kool aid.
I watched a couple MH's last summer and they were stylish and amazing to watch but they damn near stood on top of the training birds, and their owners were totally fine with it and quick to talk S about some really solid "meat" dogs that were working nearby. I don't get it.

Coverdog is run exclusively on ruffed grouse and all of those guys sing.

There are some differing schools of thought on noise and grouse. Strapped for time so the short story is a lot of guys would tell you they get more spooked when consistent noise (like a beeper or bell) changes or stops.

Im sure it also has a lot to do with the time of year these cover dog events take place. all I know is if you get a couple guys hollering away in the grouse woods in late winter when the leaves are down, the birds are going to clear out.  of course im sure you can get away with a lot more noise if your dog is rolling 200 yards out, the grouse is going to be more worried about the dog that has just locked on to its position... but try that singing with late season pheasants out in the open and tell me how it works out.

sorry for the highjacking....

Maybe in the Northwest, but out here on the East Coast and in the Midwest,  if a dog doesn't have wild bird experience, it won't win.  Nearly every Pro summers and trains in areas with tons of wild birds, like the Dakotas.  And a few of the Championships like the Chicken and Sharptail are run on only wild birds.  In the AF world, most of the Midwest trials are run on only wild birds.  It is a myth that most trial dogs will never see we birds..  At least it's a myth out here in wild bird country.   

I've also sung to my dog In SD in December while hunting wild pheasants.   She had no problem pointing her fair share of pheasants.  But then again, she better.  She spends 3 months every summer training on wild pheasants, sharptail, and chickens getting ready for trial season..  She probably gets more wild bird experience in one summer than most dogs get in a lifetime.