First time dog buyer help

[AspenBud]

Champions and SH or MH in the pedigree doesn't guarantee anything. It just stacks the odds of getting a good dog heavily in your favor.

Why settle for less when you will likely have to feed the animal for 10+ years?

You may as well hit a breed rescue otherwise (and there is nothing wrong with that).

[Atroxus]

one more thing I might ad, you should also tell your wife that your going to get the breed of dog YOU WANT, arbitrary- nonsensical size restrictions be damned... and that is just the way it is, coz daddy says so.

That's a possibility. If I can ever get a chance to hunt over some of the other breeds I was considering I might still change my mind, but so far I am heavily in favor of a lab. Your pointer was fun to hunt with too, but I got the impression that training a pointer takes more effort and finesse than training a flusher.

[Stilly bay]

Testing and health clearances? That's silly talk around here

thanks happy, I just snorted soda pop up my nose when I read that.

Champions and SH or MH in the pedigree doesn't guarantee anything. It just stacks the odds of getting a good dog heavily in your favor.

Why settle for less when you will likely have to feed the animal for 10+ years?

every health clearance and title is just one more odd in your favor vs a dog with nothing to back up its lineage which is a total an utter crap shoot.

my very first hunting dog came from  an ad in the little nickel, I did zero research ( didn't know I was supposed to) and just picked the first pup I saw. she was one of the best bird dogs I have ever had and she lived to the ripe old age of 14 with ZERO health issues.
following the success of my first birddog I got a lab pup from an ad in the little nickel ( again no research and took the owners at their word) this dog went blind at the age of two and had "the worst hip dysplasia" my vet had ever seen. after seven years of no hunting and a fortune in vet bills for other problems my lab was put down because he was too crippled to walk.
now those odds are 50/50 which are no odds at all when it comes to getting a good bird dog, so every dog since then I did my research. I looked for the proper health clearances and talked to people that had bought their dogs from the breeder I was looking at... I even waited a couple years for one of them  .
not a single one of my following dogs was a bad hunter and not one suffered from health issues that were genetic. sure some weren't field trial hall of fame potential but they were all solid hunters anyone would be proud to follow.

so when you take that gamble on a bird dog remember that: your next 10-12 hunting seasons are at stake, your bank account is at stake for potential vet bills, and if your a dog person worth two sh!tz your heart is on the line as well. why take that big of leap unless you know there is some padding? why support a back yard breeder that doesn't give a rip and keeps churning out defective dogs and selling them to people who don't do any research.
and if you do feel like taking that big of a gamble, save a life and gamble on a rescue dog.

I can see this thread turning from helping someone pick a first dog, to I like this breeder and this breeder is better because MY dog came from there..

thats what you call a "REFERENCE" and I wouldn't buy a pup without a couple solid ones.

[AspenBud]

Just remembered something. Even with a raft of championships and clearances it pays to ask around about various lines of dogs. For example, and at the risk of ruffling feathers, a lot of guys will tell you that  *censored*Tonk Pointers have a tendency to die from cancer. How true that is can be debated, but little tidbits like that are something to look out for and dig deeper in since it won't pop up in any health checks and using my example above, *censored*Tonk dogs have done their share of winning.

[Happy Gilmore]

Just remembered something. Even with a raft of championships and clearances it pays to ask around about various lines of dogs. For example, and at the risk of ruffling feathers, a lot of guys will tell you that  *censored*Tonk Pointers have a tendency to die from cancer. How true that is can be debated, but little tidbits like that are something to look out for and dig deeper in since it won't pop up in any health checks and using my example above, *censored*Tonk dogs have done their share of winning.

People who've been around for a spell and breed enough start to see tendencies. Some point them out and some look the other way. There are folks i know who believe cancer runs in a couple lines of labs. Some feel a line of Chocolates have more health problems? Some say it isn't true, others say it is? Who do you believe?

Some people's family genetics predisposition them for heart problems or other diseases like colon cancer. Why this wouldn't be true with animal genetics I don't know?

[AspenBud]

Just remembered something. Even with a raft of championships and clearances it pays to ask around about various lines of dogs. For example, and at the risk of ruffling feathers, a lot of guys will tell you that  *censored*Tonk Pointers have a tendency to die from cancer. How true that is can be debated, but little tidbits like that are something to look out for and dig deeper in since it won't pop up in any health checks and using my example above, *censored*Tonk dogs have done their share of winning.

People who've been around for a spell and breed enough start to see tendencies. Some point them out and some look the other way. There are folks i know who believe cancer runs in a couple lines of labs. Some feel a line of Chocolates have more health problems? Some say it isn't true, others say it is? Who do you believe?

Some people's family genetics predisposition them for heart problems or other diseases like colon cancer. Why this wouldn't be true with animal genetics I don't know?

The general rule I've seen and heard is that cancer that kills dogs young is genetic. Cancer that kills old dogs is age related.

It's up to the buyer to decide if that's something they want to risk. I've talked to guys who didn't care as long as the dog was a bird finding maniac for the time it was alive. Others wouldn't touch those same dogs.

I've also seen a line of bench Pointer that had a rep for living 14-18 years.

[Lee Root]

Something else to consider before you put a breeder through all kinds of scrutiny, and be serious and honest about this:

1.   Are you ready to bring a dog into your home?
2.   Are you ready and able to cover vet costs, from simple regular visits for shots and worming, all the way up to flipped stomachs, or care for major injuries?
3.   Do you have the time to invest in training your dog?
4.   Do you have a safe, fenced enclosure for the dog?
5.   Are you willing to buy birds for training,launchers, check cords, leashes, crates, bowls, replace chewed shoes, chewed furniture, training collars, bark collars, quality dog food....etc?
6.   Are you able to travel with your dog or do you have reliable boarding arrangements for your dog?
7.    Are the rest of your family members ready to have a dog in the home, and will they treat the dog in somewhat of a consistent manner so that there is harmony in the home with the dog in it?
8.     Will you, if you are buying a dog for hunting, actually hunt the dog?

My point, simply, is that a breeder will want to know these things about you; but before one puts a breeder's reputation on the line, one really needs to evaluate the commitment that one is going to put into making a dog a good citizen in the home and your best buddy in the field and blind.

[wildweeds]

Good question to test the waters " Why did you breed?" The awnser better include to "Make something better" or some variation that leads to "improving". The premise that a bought CH sired dog bred to another bought CH sired dog is worthy of breeding based on paper alone is where a lot of jippo quality dogs come from IMO. Theres more than one outfit that has a pair of everything under the sun and is pumpiing out pups with a song and dance line......................... all in the name of puppy money.

[AspenBud]

An example of how breeding best to best works in your favor. All of the dogs at stud listed in this link come from great lines, but the one called Rock Solid really exemplifies my point about stacking odds in your favor. That dog has been lined up in the winner's circle with his littermates and even a dog or two he sired more than once.

http://hifivekennels.com/stud_dogs.htm

That dog is now transitioning from Coverdog to All Age trials. How well that goes remains to be seen, but not a lot of dogs can do that.

[Special T]

http://www.volhard.com/pages/pat.php
I think this is a good way to try and put structure into the picking a puppy process.

[Stilly bay]

... just filling in the gaps from another thread...

BIRDS! you need birds to make a bird dog. you will need birds through most stages of a young dogs life so you better figure out where you are going to get a steady supply well before you go puppy shopping.

pigeons are great because they don't smell like a gamebird so you if screw up the dog won't associate your screw up with real birds.
they are easy to raise and easy to catch.

sometimes they are very hard to buy. generally pigeon fanciers will all have more birds than they need in the spring months when the pigeons are breeding, after you hit june they are much harder to buy at a reasonable price and many pigeon fanciers don't want to sell to bird dog people.

its much easier and much cheaper to build a small pigeon loft for around $200 bucks and keep a dozen pigeons year 'round  than it is to travel all over hill and dale looking for people selling training birds.

[wildweeds]

... just filling in the gaps from another thread...

BIRDS! you need birds to make a bird dog. you will need birds through most stages of a young dogs life so you better figure out where you are going to get a steady supply well before you go puppy shopping.

pigeons are great because they don't smell like a gamebird so you if screw up the dog won't associate your screw up with real birds.
they are easy to raise and easy to catch.

sometimes they are very hard to buy. generally pigeon fanciers will all have more birds than they need in the spring months when the pigeons are breeding, after you hit june they are much harder to buy at a reasonable price and many pigeon fanciers don't want to sell to bird dog people.

its much easier and much cheaper to build a small pigeon loft for around $200 bucks and keep a dozen pigeons year 'round  than it is to travel all over hill and dale looking for people selling training birds.

[JJD]

this thread CAN be very useful,  if we stick to FACTS, and suggest what people should look for in health certification, how the kennel is run,   stuff that would affect EVERY puppy purchase.
a lot of the other stuff is just opinion, like if parents are champions, or champion bread, does not necessarily give you a good pup.  and someone's experience with a certain breed can be a total different experience for me with that exact breed. 

I can see this thread turning from helping someone pick a first dog, to I like this breeder and this breeder is better because MY dog came from there..

just my       

 

I agree to a point, there should be a seperate thread for "recommened breeders".
I believe you analogy is a bit off however.  A breeder providing health clearances garrantees no more than work titles.  Both of the scew the odds in your favor.  However, pups whos sire and dam have NFC or AFC in their name may not be what the average hunter wants.  Dogs that run the upper ends of the dog games are often high power dogs who have a very high energy level and need to leave the line like they are shot out of a cannon in order to be competative.  These dogs often require more pressure and time to train than the average hunter is willing to put in.  Test titles however, indicate that the parents were trainable.  Many of these dogs may well have Field trial lines, but may have not had enough fire in themselves to compete at the upper levels.  Still excellent dogs, and maybe more suited to the dog a hunter can work with.
All based on empirical observation.  I'm not a breeder and don't intend to get into that game.  God bless those who do it right.   

[Happy Gilmore]

this thread CAN be very useful,  if we stick to FACTS, and suggest what people should look for in health certification, how the kennel is run,   stuff that would affect EVERY puppy purchase.
a lot of the other stuff is just opinion, like if parents are champions, or champion bread, does not necessarily give you a good pup.  and someone's experience with a certain breed can be a total different experience for me with that exact breed. 

I can see this thread turning from helping someone pick a first dog, to I like this breeder and this breeder is better because MY dog came from there..

just my       

 

I agree to a point, there should be a seperate thread for "recommened breeders".
I believe you analogy is a bit off however.  A breeder providing health clearances garrantees no more than work titles.  Both of the scew the odds in your favor.  However, pups whos sire and dam have NFC or AFC in their name may not be what the average hunter wants.  Dogs that run the upper ends of the dog games are often high power dogs who have a very high energy level and need to leave the line like they are shot out of a cannon in order to be competative.  These dogs often require more pressure and time to train than the average hunter is willing to put in.  Test titles however, indicate that the parents were trainable.  Many of these dogs may well have Field trial lines, but may have not had enough fire in themselves to compete at the upper levels.  Still excellent dogs, and maybe more suited to the dog a hunter can work with.
All based on empirical observation.  I'm not a breeder and don't intend to get into that game.  God bless those who do it right. 

So, What you are saying is that testing the dam and the sire for PRA(knowing their results) will NOT guaranttee that the pups won't go blind? (I'm setting you up if you can't tell) If you are saying a PRA result is of equal importance as a agility title I'll have to politely disagree with you. Having both Sire and Dam (in breeds with histories of dysplasia such as Labs) showing good results doesn't mean anything?

[Special T]

I think from all of this you can derive 2 things
1 if you have more time than $(at least a large chunk for purchase) then there is some simple stuff you can do yourself to check out a dog and its parentage. You take a higher risk but you put up less cashfor that risk.
2 You can pay for more selective breeding and get what you pay for. IE testing and selective breeding for traits etc.

IF you are going to teach the dog yourself then option 1 may be ok. That is the route that i took with my first dog. I just found a dog, liked it and started hunting/training. I think that if its the journey of training/hunting together then this is on ok way to go.

IF you plan on sending your dog away to be trained then you will fork out some $, and if you are going to do that some assurances are a wise investment. I got a dog with some decent breeding and records but he didn't cost me a bunch... He was the last do to go and they wanted to gethim out of the house... I forked over for some training so it was a better route for me than my first dog.

The 3rd route that has not been discussed is adopting a dog. I know that this isn't what the thread is all about, but with today's economy some good dogs are given up for little or nothing... I think adoption may be an easier way to asses because they are usually full grown... Neither of my hunting dogs have been adopted but i have had adopted dogs.