The absurdity of WDFW draw system

[judojudd]

..... and have been forced to put in for points each year since because I'm not that interested in hunting spikes and cows ...

Interesting dichotomy.

So did WDFW hold a gun to your head or is it a self imposed limitation?

Well said, Bean Counter. Clearly what I meant.

[judojudd]

My stance has been shaped largely by the way that Oregon has managed it's point system. My dad put in for 15 years for the walla walla rifle branched bull tag and was more or less able to plan for when he was likely to get drawn. He knew (based on conversations with the folks at ODFW) putting in for the 15th time that he was the only the only non-resident left with as many points as he had and so he knew he would be drawn. It turned out to be a great hunt with a once in a lifetime bull taken.  Same with my uncle 3 years prior.
We are all in agreement that there is no perfect system. I think Washington's system could be improved. I'd love the east/west division to go the way of the buffalo.
I'm digging this thread, btw. No shortage of opinions out there. Helps pass the time in the offseason at least. 

[bobcat]

Like I said, you really can't compare Oregon's system with ours, because they have no general elk season. Would you be willing to give up hunting elk every year in order to increase your odds of drawing a "trophy" permit?

[mtman]

I like the way it is. I think it offers the best of both worlds Quantity or Quality. I have done both east and west I chose to hunt west for branch bulls most years. If I didn't draw on the eastside , I would just hunt the NE corner for bulls.

[judojudd]

Like I said, you really can't compare Oregon's system with ours, because they have no general elk season. Would you be willing to give up hunting elk every year in order to increase your odds of drawing a "trophy" permit?

I'm going with what I know of my favorite units in the blues in oregon (Wenaha/Walla Walla). Yes, there is no general elk season for those units. But you are not necessarily screwed if you don't draw your trophy hunt. For instance, say you want to hunt the walla walla with a rifle, you can put in for the branched bull tag as your first choice and spikes as your second choice. You've got great odds of drawing the spike tag (woohoo!) and almost no chance of drawing the bull tag until you've accrued a boatload of points. Yes, it would suck to not get drawn for either, but I love the certainty of your chances once you've waited your turn.

[bobcat]

But it's also true that once you wait all those years, save up enough points, and draw the tag you want, you no longer have a chance at that same hunt, until you accumulate at least as many points as you had before.

With our system, you at least have a chance to draw every year.

[judojudd]

Shoutout to AdamR. I'm glad you are making the most of our current system and having success. Good for you. 
As for the comments about my fee proposal being too hard on the working class hunter, is that really too steep? I guess I'm comparing this to what most states charge for out of state licenses and tags. I can't afford to put in for other states.
Phelps, you are in a place where you put in for multiple tags in multiple states. Would you feel differently if your finances didn't allow you the option of putting in for multiple states? Just curious.

[mtman]

It seems to me that the math shows its just going to get worse and worse. Right now average points are somewere around 10. That number is just going to keep rising. So people waiting for there chance if they started applying now knowing they have no chance in drawing until they had max points. That would seem like a bad investment.

[Curly]

The OR system works there because there is a lot more elk there and less hunters going after the elk that are there.  I don't think it would work in this overcrowded state.

[coachcw]

Two main things would ha ve to happen here to improve our system . one we would hae to beable to give up a season or two, second our game dept would have t be willing to loose tag revune / or increase fee's. I would be willing to do both.

[ShaneTyTrey]

Dale keeps talking about OIL draw odds in Idaho.  I think the percentages have less to do with no point system and more to do with 3 important factors that Idaho is the only state that has all 3 in place...1) a lot of oil permits (especially compared to WA). 2) Require hunters to pay the full tag up front and 3) most important in my mind is that each individual can only apply for one each year. 

If WA only did #3 our OIL draw odds would go up a ton.

Just my

[JLS]

Dale keeps talking about OIL draw odds in Idaho.  I think the percentages have less to do with no point system and more to do with 3 important factors that Idaho is the only state that has all 3 in place...1) a lot of oil permits (especially compared to WA). 2) Require hunters to pay the full tag up front and 3) most important in my mind is that each individual can only apply for one each year. 

If WA only did #3 our OIL draw odds would go up a ton.

Just my

When WDFW split all of the special permit categories out, and then told folks their points would automatically carry over to ALL new categories, and you can put in for the moon at $5 a shot, who honestly didn't think the odds would go to hades in a handbasket.

[Todd_ID]

There's simply too many people and too few animals in this state.  A system like Oregon's wouldn't work here because we don't have the herds to support the number of applicants.  Point creep would be 25x worse than Colorado, so most of us would never have a chance at a tag.  We can't harvest enough bulls for people to be placated without wiping out either herd health or trophy potential.  East versus West will never be done being hashed over; you have no idea the contempt felt toward Seattle/I-5 over here.   And unleashing a flood of applicants on the Colockum herd or Blues herd would put the draw odds at less than .001%.

Even if we stopped spike hunting in the Blues we could only take 20-30 bulls a year in each unit before the trophy potential started hurting badly and we lose all that we've gained since spike-only started.  These units are small, and there aren't that many elk out there to support any increases in hunting.  For instance, the popular 175 Lick Creek Unit had 37 elk taken in the last available count from 2011.  24 of those were bulls: 20 were spikes.  I don't know many who would give up their annual time out of the house for a family camp for a chance at drawing 15-20 tags instead of 7 because the state did away with the general season. 

We'd lose the foundation of hunting if we lose the tradition of the annual hunting camp, and we've already given up enough by going spike-only.  If we want more tags available, then we need to work on habitat increases and predator decreases.

[ing]

If its a distribution issue then why not just drop the whole eastside/westside elk tags? Just make it an elk tag good for the whole state like deer is.  Then run the general elk seasons on both sides of the state at the same time.  People that hunt the west side will still hunt the west side and people that hunt the east side will still hunt the east side.  Then you can put in for whatever special elk tag you want to and still be able to hunt your regular areas.

In this proposal would E side be 3 pt or better, or the westside allow spike?  My guess would be that if the E side was still spike then majority of the state would put Blues or Colockum as one of their Quality Bull wishes and then when not drawn would all head to the W side to look for bulls.  Not all, but I suspect a majority would.

I'm saying leave the point restrictions the same just dont make us choose what side of the state we want to hunt.  Personally I dont ever plan on hunting elk on the west side and I know a lot of people that dont either.  There is lots of hunters here on the east side that have been hunting the same areas for 40+ years and they dont plan on heading west anytime soon.  I guessing its the same for a lot of west side hunters.  So, if someone from the east side wants to put in for a west side bull tag and still be able to accumulate points, why not let him? Same for west side hunters.

[ing]

If its a distribution issue then why not just drop the whole eastside/westside elk tags? Just make it an elk tag good for the whole state like deer is.  Then run the general elk seasons on both sides of the state at the same time.  People that hunt the west side will still hunt the west side and people that hunt the east side will still hunt the east side.  Then you can put in for whatever special elk tag you want to and still be able to hunt your regular areas.

So how about this:

Statewide General Elk Tag (hunt any general season, apply for your choice of LE areas statewide)
Eliminate Spike Elk Tags
Increase Permits in 2nd year and afterward for Any Bull in Limited-Entry Areas
Continue Cow Tags as WDFW determines necessary

Yeah, I could probably go for that but it still forces us to choose an area.  Like I said before, I dont ever plan on hunting the west side,but I'd like to be able to have the option too for whatever reason.