The absurdity of WDFW draw system

[Curly]

I think there is no need to try to accommodate the high point holders.  WDFW already gifted them points in every category when they started this damn category thing.  They have the high points because they only apply for the premier permits, and that is the chance they take.

[EyeTooth]

A lot of forethought would have to be put into any future changes made to the draw system here. This most recent change that was made (the creation of the new sub categories) appears to have also created several “hopefully” unintended consequences, all of them negative for everyone that puts in for elk permits.  I’m only talking about elk points. The reason the new sub categories were created, besides the WDFW wanting more money, was in large part due to the complaints from some of the people who had the most points, and that only put in for the hard to draw bull permits. Their complaint was that they wanted to be able to draw cow permits, but they didn’t think it was fair that they should have to use, or in other words lose their points to be able to do it. WDFW, instead of telling them to do like everyone else had to do and use their points on a cow permit if they wanted one, put out the surveys to see if hunters would agree to the idea of having multiple sub categories for each species. The majority of respondents thought it would be a good enough idea. What should have happened next, in my opinion, was at the start of the new system, each applicant should have had to choose one of the sub categories to put their existing points into. Then they could start building points in the other sub categories that they were interested in the old fashioned way, by earning them. But, what did happen was the GMAC decided without any input from the hunting public, to spread the applicant’s existing points throughout every sub category.
With the new system, what the people with the most points got was a free cow elk permit and the ability to keep their bull points, not in just one bull section, but two!
The unintended consequences are that they created more competition for themselves in both bull sub categories, dramatically increased the average number of points that it takes to draw in every sub category for everyone, and completely destroyed the chance for themselves and the people that had already chosen to use their points each year to try to draw any easier to get permit, of ever being able to expect to draw any kind of permit on a semi regular basis again.
This isn’t meant to be a complaint, although I do feel very sorry for the average cow permit applicants. I just think that any new changes need to be discussed very thoroughly, well thought out, and should only be made by people who will consider the best interests of all of the applicants, no matter how many points they have.  We’re all in this together and we should be very careful what we ask for.
Even if the WDFW would have started this new system the way that I thought they should have, as described above, it is a system that would have eventually put us in the same situation that we're in right now anyway. It would have just taken a little longer to get here.  Very short sighted planning in my opinion.

[bobcat]

EyeTooth, exactly!  My brother and I had both decided, just a couple years before the change, that we would only apply for cow elk permits , and hopefully draw one every couple years. Then they created the new categories and gave everyone "free" points. Suddenly, if you didn't have 10 points or more, you had little chance of drawing a cow permit.

It was extremely unfair what they did. And they did it with almost no input from the general public. We heard about the proposal, and a month later it was a done deal.   

[Curly]

Yeah, Eyetooth.......I agree completely.

But, was it really GMAC that lobbied for the point distribution?  I got the impression that it was Dave Ware's decision because it was "easier" for Outdoor Central (as he put it) to do it that way.  I've been pissed for a couple years now because of Dave Ware's decision to distribute the points like he did (and I hate his reasoning that they did it because it was an easier solution for him, instead of doing what was fair).

[elksnout]

Eyetooth for President!!      Well said.

[JPhelps]

For me drawing a permit is a "BONUS"

No department owes me a tag, I don't deserve a tag and I knew it was a gamble when I started putting in 7 years ago.  When I was growing up I don't know how many times I heard "life isn't fair".  There are plenty of other states like Idaho and Montana that allow you to hunt big bulls and bucks every year.

[adamR]

For me drawing a permit is a "BONUS"

No department owes me a tag, I don't deserve a tag and I knew it was a gamble when I started putting in 7 years ago.  When I was growing up I don't know how many times I heard "life isn't fair".  There are plenty of other states like Idaho and Montana that allow you to hunt big bulls and bucks every year.

BINGO 
WELL SAID!!!
The game dept doesn't owe you anything.  The guy that never gets his way is always treated poorly and nothing is ever fair.  The reality is the system is very fair and you will never make everyone happy so a exponential points system is the fairest they can make it.

[Mr Mykiss]

Random:
If there were an Oregon type system in place (75% of tags go to max points) what would the point creep be like in Washington? For example in Oregon the max points are 17 (close enough) and if you have 10 points the point creep is so bad that you won't draw a tag in the "big three" elk units for 30ish years... if that.
What would it be like in Washington with that kind of a system?
It would take a hell of a long time, many many years, for the people in WA with max points to all be drawn for their quality permits.

[WDFW Hates ME!!!]

I believe if they started the oregon system started today and we kept the points we have the odds of draw would increase for the time being. I believe people would see that with point creep you would never draw tags like colockum, or the blues and would decide to waste there big points in other units. Maybe not. But there are 700 people with 15 points or more right now. How long would it take to cycle through those 700? and then think about the children that are just starting out right now. Like my son that has 3 points, likely they would never have the chance to draw one of those tags.

I think the people that want a true preference point system are greedy and think that they are owed a tag because they have been applying for so many years. I say tough crap, you aren't owed a special permit, you apply for an opportunity draw that permit. If you buy a lottery ticket every week for 20 years do you feel cheated if you never hit? And do you think you should have more preference than the person who has only been buying a lottery ticket for 2 weeks?

[winshooter88]

Eyetooth, the GMAC did not come up with the idea for the current special permit program. It was brought to the GMAC by the WDFW and we were asked our opinion. Contrary to what was told to the game commission there wasn't unanimous support in the GMAC, it was about 65% for 35% against. The thing is most of the people on this forum think that the GMAC group has some decision making authority and that is not true. All we do is tell them our opinion and the WDFW makes their own decisions. The GMAC is only an advisory group to the director of the WDFW, that is all.

[skywalker253]

I think there is no need to try to accommodate the high point holders.  WDFW already gifted them points in every category when they started this damn category thing.  They have the high points because they only apply for the premier permits, and that is the chance they take.

You would not have that opinion if you were sitting on 23 points and hoping to get drawn every year. And if your hunting partner gets drawn at 3 points, you would probably be frusterated.

There is truth to what you are saying about stacking points, because they are applying for premier hunts. It took my dad over 30 years to get drawn for a cow tag in GMU 673. I don't think that is a premier hunt. 

[WDFW Hates ME!!!]

Skywalker i have the same opinion as Curly. And i have alot of points. But i only apply for the best hunts, and hunt the general season if i don't draw.
If i wanted a better opportunity to draw i would apply for a unit with better odds.

[skywalker253]

I agree with some of the other members opinions. I don't feel the game department owes me a permit. The lottery ticket analogy was a perfect example. I love the current system. I use to never get drawn for a cow tag. Now I get drawn every 3 years. I have never drawn a bull permit or quality permit. I get drawn every year for a doe tag, regardless of the way the draw system is setup. I have never drawn a buck or quality deer permit. Perhaps if the high point holders have already benifited tremendously, when the system changed over; maybe they seperate out the youths and 65 and older. I think it would be cool to see my son harvest a nice bull. Or my father, who is just about done hunting. I would love to see him get a trophy bull before he retires from hunting. I am happy to sit on my 17 points for however long it takes to get drawn. I plan on applying for less popular areas to get drawn faster. I could careless if I shoot a 400 class Blues Bull. If I wanted a bull like that, then I would just pay the money and hire a guide out of state.

[Mr Mykiss]

I have fiends in the max points haven't drawn group. However I'm in the drew with 5 points group. I can see both sides of the argument.

[Curly]

Skywalker, you just made me think of another point about the point distribution that WDFW did to all categories.  The seniors got screwed over with that deal. 

Lets say your dad 65 a couple years ago and when the category system was created and say he had already drawn an elk permit the year before.  He would be starting in the senior category with 0 points.  Now its 3 years into the category system, your dad is 68 and has 3 points built up now, but there is a whole pool of 65 year olds with points they were gifted by WDFW (possibly 15 or 16 points).  What are the chances of a 65 year old guy drawing in the category when there are so many other guys that have several points?  (and it's not like the guys with 10 points in the category are 75 years old).