3 or 4

[rosscrazyelk]

 I always used to  shoot with 3 vanes until a friend talked me into trying 4. I have no clue why it works better  but it does. For my setup anyway.
What about you?

[dawn2dusk]

4 fletch for me. Always have and always will. Arrows fly a lot better down range when shooting broadbeads. Gave 3 fletch a shot last year an after lots of shootin and tinkering I found that 4 fletch just flew better for me. Good luck on your pursuit for tighter groups!

[LBES]

3 vanes... less weight. And the broad head has 3 vanes too - I line up the vanes with blades to get each arrow to fly more consistently. However, I've never shot 4 vanes - but never have had the need to try.

[jackelope]

4 blazers for me. That's what the guy who built my arrows suggested and he knows better than me.

[RadSav]

There are compromises to everything in archery.  Fletching is no exception.  Assuming you use the same sized fletching for each the three fletch and four fletch arrows there are benefits and disadvantages to each. 

Three fletch allows you to achieve proper FOC with less weight.  It reduces the the amount of noise in flight.  It's faster and easier to fletch.  And it is effective as long as the total surface of drag exceeds the total surface of drag in your broadhead.  The odd cock vane also allows you to consistently orient spline on arrows with soft spline orientation.

Four fletches biggest advantage is clearance and cock rotation as you receive the same clearance on the rest at zero nock placement or 180 degree nock placement.  Arrows with bad spline orientation that might not be the best idea.  But under most high stress hunting situations it's generally a benefit.  The three fletch arrow has 25% less surface of drag than the four fletch arrow.  As a result the four fletch arrow generally corrects faster in the initial transfer from static to dynamic.  It also helps keep the transfer of energy forward as the arrow passes the apex of the parabolic curve (if you happen to shoot that far).

The absolutes are not always that simple though.  And compromises can always be had that eliminate each as a benefit and each as a positive.  Take for example max helical -vs- slight offset.  A max helical three fletched arrow may very well exceed initial alignment benefits of a slight offset four fletched arrow.  And it's improved gyro stability can help the transfer of momentum at the apex of the parabolic curve compared to the slight offset four fletched arrow.  However, a four fletched arrow using Max Helical may exhibit too much initial drag and actually start to effect the arrows rate of deceleration as compared to the max helical counter part.  Once in complete rotation amount of drag difference is minimal unless your fletching material flutters heavily.

For myself I happily use them both.  Though I have to say now that I see so many other people using four fletch it is not as much of an attraction to me as it was when I started using it 27 years ago.  For my anal nature arrow spline is an area of mental distress to me.  As a result I tend to lean toward the three fletched max helical on all my carbon arrows.  And I tend to lean toward the basic helical 90 degree four fletch on all my ACC, FMJ and aluminum arrows.

To me the only absolute decision with fletching is that it should never ever be applied straight.

[MLBowhunting]

 B your new name is wizard lol 

[bullcrazy]

Great information rad.

[jackelope]

That's exactly what I was trying to say. I just couldn't find the right words. Thanks Rad.

[carpsniperg2]

I made the switch a long time ago to 4. I have always seen a gain in running 4. I am sure there is a little more drag with more surface area in the wind. I shoot 6 fletch on my recurve arrows with 3" feathers.

[coachcw]

Rad said it all . I go with four fletch blazzers and never look back !

[Greg Mullins]

4 blazers for me also.

[DoubleJ]

3 for me because RadSav told me to.  Hasn't been an issue so I'm not going to change anything

[RadSav]

3 for me because RadSav told me to.  Hasn't been an issue so I'm not going to change anything

I did? I've been having a lot of senior moments lately   Did I send you some MAX Hunter vanes?

[BOWHUNTER45]

3 

[dreamunelk]

Always used 3, don't no why.  I am little rusty at aerodynamics but, I see more problems that benefits.  I would think that something is wrong with your set up if four shoots better.  As I said a little rusty,

[DoubleJ]

3 for me because RadSav told me to.  Hasn't been an issue so I'm not going to change anything

I did? I've been having a lot of senior moments lately   Did I send you some MAX Hunter vanes?

You said if 3 with the 6 degree bend made by my Arizona E-Z Fletch mini was working, don't change.

Here's what you sent me (no lable on the package)

[RadSav]

Yeah those are the MAX Hunter vanes.  I did not like them as four fletch.  A little too big of profile and a little too heavy I think for 4.  As a three fletch they are wonderful!!!  The extra profile gives as much as most others in 4 fletched so why waste the additional fletch.  Blazers I'll take either way and really like them as four, but 3 fletch only with the MAX Hunter IMO.

[DoubleJ]

Yeah those are the MAX Hunter vanes.  I did not like them as four fletch.  A little too big of profile and a little too heavy I think for 4.  As a three fletch they are wonderful!!!  The extra profile gives as much as most others in 4 fletched so why waste the additional fletch.  Blazers I'll take either way and really like them as four, but 3 fletch only with the MAX Hunter IMO.

I love them.  They fletch easy and damn near indestructible

[Greg Mullins]

three

[coonhound]

I use 4 fletch primarily because I don't want to pay attention to fletch orientation in the heat of the moment...just snap it on and shoot.

[Smossy]

Two + 1 For me.

[coachcw]

So I played around a bit today with poundage and spine aswell as fletchings . I found the new cpxl  shot a 250 carbon express at 61 lbs and 29.5 inch draw killer . at 66 lbs the 350 spine arrows only 20 grains heavier fell off quicker . I was shooting really well with the three fletch 250's so I screwed a broad head on one a shuttle t just screwed it on with the factory three fletch and cut the flecthing right off at 40 yards . now in questioning my four fletch set up . maybe because the foc was higher on the 250's ?

[earlmarne]

i spend many sleepless nights building new arrows.i have yet to find any good reason in my shooting to use four fletch.
i have moved back recently to a 3 inch vanetec with 575 grains of arrow n 18 percent foc.
i have yet to have an arrow fly as well as my high foc set ups.seem more forgiving of everything.with the exception of yardage estimation.due to overall weight being higher therefore slower

[RadSav]

So I played around a bit today with poundage and spine as well as fletchings . I found the new cpxl  shot a 250 carbon express at 61 lbs and 29.5 inch draw killer . at 66 lbs the 350 spine arrows only 20 grains heavier fell off quicker . I was shooting really well with the three fletch 250's so I screwed a broad head on one a shuttle t just screwed it on with the factory three fletch and cut the flecthing right off at 40 yards . now in questioning my four fletch set up . maybe because the foc was higher on the 250's ?

At 30" draw length and arrows 29.5" in length you are really pushing the limits of what the 250 can do out of the Insanity CPXL.  Not sure I would be that brave with an all graphite arrow.  Even the 350 @ 66# is pushing it beyond where it is recommended.  With the four fletch and assuming you are using the Blue Streak or Maxima shafts the difference in overall drop at 40 yards between the two different set ups you mention should only be a couple of inches total.  And drop per yard at the target should only differ about 1/10th of an inch.  So if you are seeing the 350's at 66# dropping off much quicker there has to be a problem somewhere as long as you are not using full helical and quickspins together.  FOB is a good bit different and being close to that 12% mark on the 250/61#/3 fletch might be the difference to some small extent.  But it could be that you have the bow tuned just right for the extreme paradox in the 250's that is not there in the 350/66# which are closer to a match for your bow than the 250/61#.
 
Even with 4 fletched Blazers, lightweight Maxima/Blue Streak and a 9.5-10% FOC you should not see any fluflu effect. You are not reaching the apex of the arrows parabolic curve with the four fletch/350/66# until nearly 120 yards.  So there should be no issue with three or four until 20 yards one way or the other from that point.  I myself would shoot both arrows at 40 yards using the exact same pin setting.  If the groups differ more than 2.5" I'd say you are having a tuning or spine related problem not a fletching problem.

Myself, if I were shooting that long of draw length and that long of arrow I would be shooting the 350 at 61# and a 300 spine arrow at 66#.  And I would not be worried about FOC or 3-vs-4 until I knew I had any spine issues and bow tuning absolutely perfect. 

[boneaddict]

3

[coachcw]

Rav I hear you thats why I was gonna stick with the 350's . I shortend the draw length to 29.5 since it felt a bit long and backed it down to 61 to just play with it . it was shooting the 350s well but really fell off at 40 yards ( shooting perfict paper). I had a box of maxima 250's with three fletch blazzers and according to the spine chart i was right at there limit . I can only assume they have a bit of saftey built into there numbers ? . when I went to the 250s with 100 grain tips It dropped my arrow weight approx 20 grains and the groups tightened up I can only assume that it was because of more front of center ? any why my pin gap was tighter than the 66lbs set up with the 350s out to 50 yards atleast . I just figured that I'd try a broad head so I scewed a shuttle t on and it flew right with the field points 20, 30. and 40 yards . Can I assume that I'm not underspined if the two set ups fly that well ? at 61 lbs my 250 set up is at 295 grains give or take a couple well over the leagal limit , and the 350 set up is at 419grains , my thinking is  if the 250's where under spined then the 350s should have shoot tighter groups ? Man I figured after 20 years of this I 'd figured it out .

[coachcw]

one other thing I might ad Rav is that the bow was quieter at 61 with the 250's vrs the 350s at 66 ? another pondering for me . the 250's are 30 grains overe the legal limit and the 350's are only 20 grains over at those respected wieghts so I figured that had something to do with it .

[JJD]

Great thread guys, thanks.

[RadSav]

at 61 lbs my 250 set up is at 295 grains give or take a couple well over the leagal limit , and the 350 set up is at 419grains

Did you mean 395 grains?  I've been running programs over and over trying to make sense of what you are seeing.  What arrow and are you using a wrap?  I'll run a couple more and see if I can make sense of it finally.  But so far you got some freaky stuff going on

[coachcw]

Sorry Rav yes 395 opps. the other thin I see with the 250's is a slightly higher impact at 20 where the 350s hit closser to the 30 mark at twenty yet both arrows hit the same at 30 . could it be the cam style and axle to axle on the cpxl are just forgiving on spine or maybe these maxima 250's are just rated a little low . they shoot really well and I was expecting to see that broad head go stray but it shoot killer . the crazy thing to me is that the 250s have a better wieght to poundage ratio than the 350's . plus the 250s are accually a lil long so I could take about an inch off them . As quiet as this thing is and as good as they shoot i'm hesitant to not just run with them . maybe this weekend when I'm over east I will play with both of them at 60-80 yards and see how much steam they loose . ? Thanks for all you wisdom I really appricate your thaughts . C

[RadSav]

What about wraps? Y/N Length? What shafts?  Cut to what length?

I've been punching in raw shaft weight numbers to make the numbers work out right.  And not a dang thing makes sense   Even with four fletch the 350/66# should be more efficient.  Noise should be a big clue.  Between the two there should be only a percentage point different in GR/# and FOC if no wrap is used.  Total drop difference at 40 yards 1.1" difference with the 350 being the flatter shooter.  Looks like you found a magic spot in paradox in the 250's that you do not have with the 350's.  I'm skeptical it will hold long term.  That's really, really pushing the limits of the 250!

Does show that you must have some dag gum good form and that CPXL has some fantastic repeatability

[coachcw]

rav , they are full length right now , they are at 29. knock to insert without wraps , I could easily take an inch off but kinda like the 7.5 grains and if I decide to go back to 30 inch draw it might get close. the balance point was at 12.25 inches on a 29.25 inch arrow I didn't figure out the foc math just know it shoots killer , did I say it shoots killer . I've always been a poundage guy but i'm likeing this set up. As far as form of course it's as close to perfict as it can get and not be a machine  I'm sure the bowtech has nothing to do with it 

[RadSav]

rav , they are full length right now , they are at 29. knock to insert without wraps , I could easily take an inch off but kinda like the 7.5 grains and if I decide to go back to 30 inch draw it might get close. the balance point was at 12.25 inches on a 29.25 inch arrow I didn't figure out the foc math just know it shoots killer , did I say it shoots killer . I've always been a poundage guy but i'm likeing this set up. As far as form of course it's as close to perfict as it can get and not be a machine  I'm sure the bowtech has nothing to do with it 

How are you getting 395 grains from a 29.25" arrow with 7.5 grains per inch?  Shouldn't that be 345 grains finished arrow

[coachcw]

my 350's are 419, they are 28.25 at 8.3gph and the 250's are 29.5 at 7.4 with bull dog knocks  so I took roughl 23 grains off my known weight of the 350's . I don't have an arrow scale here but i'm pretty sure that weight is close .

[TommyH]

Tagged! Good info here. I use a 3, I think Rad should have a sticky thread with all this arrow/spline/FOC and his other great info. There is alot of info that will help alot of people, myself included! Thanks Radsav!

[coachcw]

Ok now im mind screwed here I just did the math and came out with 360 grains ! do you have the insert weights , bull dog nocks and blazer weights ? thanks brian . I guess I need to get ahold of a scale . heck maybe the scale was off when I checked the 350's . I wont doubt your math brother .

[coachcw]

hell maybe I should just pull out the 2419's again ?

[coachcw]

my bow scale is one of cabellas and nine turns off a 70 lbs limb it reads 59lbs , it may be off I just figured it was 61. It's crazy to me how todays bows don't seem to lose to much efficancey backing the limbs down . This brings up a point I was gonna make Rav , do you think that I'm getting these results because these are 70lbs limbs backed down to sixty vrs 60s down tight ?

[RadSav]

Ok now im mind screwed here I just did the math and came out with 360 grains ! do you have the insert weights , bull dog nocks and blazer weights ? thanks brian . I guess I need to get ahold of a scale . heck maybe the scale was off when I checked the 350's . I wont doubt your math brother .

I'm betting those 250's are older shafts and the 350's are newer shafts   Only way I can get things to work out where the 250's at 61# shoot flatter than the 350's at 66# is with a variance in nock throat.  The older TCX nocks were fitted perfect for todays strings.  The more recent ones I've gotten are way too dang tight (I now replace them with Easton Micro Lite nocks).  That reflects in speed and trajectory a whole bunch.  Much more than one might think.  Would be sort of cool to see what would happen if you swap the nocks out and see what happens.

Bull Dog collars should be 4 grains and each Blazer vane should be 6 grains.  Standard CE insert is way light at 11 grains (reason I generaly shoot Vibrake inserts in my Blue Streak/Maxima shafts.  Though those have changed from 23 grains to Hot Tails @ 16 grains).

[RadSav]

my bow scale is one of cabellas and nine turns off a 70 lbs limb it reads 59lbs , it may be off I just figured it was 61. It's crazy to me how todays bows don't seem to lose to much efficancey backing the limbs down . This brings up a point I was gonna make Rav , do you think that I'm getting these results because these are 70lbs limbs backed down to sixty vrs 60s down tight ?

NINE TURNS OUT!!!   That would be a 27# reduction in the old days!  If that held true today you would be shooting that bow at about 45 pounds.  Which would certainly make sense as the 250 spine would then be dead center optimal in spine for the 29.5" CPXL @ 45#.  I might have to call the guys at Bowtech tomorrow and see what they have for poundage reduction per turn.  I'd do it to one of my Bowtechs, but I'm afraid to.  They are shooting just too sic at the moment.

Lightweight max load limbs really are a thing of amazement.  We always knew it was advantageous.  But when Jennings and Carroll came close to it in the past the limbs just could not take it.  The Jennings T-Star was a great shooter, but it was not uncommon for active target shooters to go through multiple sets of limbs in a year.  And that wasn't nothing in preload to what you are seeing today.  Sometimes modern technology IS a good thing.  Not too often in archery but there are times   Max load plus CPX is one heck of a combination and Bowtech has really got it dialed in right now.  You really are not loosing much in efficiency these days with a max load limb like PSE, Bowtech CPX, highend Bear and McPherson when taking some reasonable weight off.  Most of the inefficiencies come if you don't have the adjustability in the string stops.  One of the reasons the new Bear Motive is so impressive with the double adjustable string stops.

If these results were skewed because of the limbs not being tight against the riser you would see a massive improvement in the 350 @ 66# over the 250@61 pounds.  And if that were the case I'd not be banging my head against the wall trying to make sense of the numbers and recollections your posting.  But what you are posting just makes no freakin sense at all   For seamheads like myself that hurts the brain.

I despise paper tuning!  It is so easy to get mislead with paper.  You find the right distance and the right spine you can get perfect holes when nothing at all is optimal. Fact that you are getting field points and broadheads to fly together now that impresses me! Good holes in paper doesn't necessarily mean perfect arrow flight.  Sort of like getting good arrow flight off the shelf of a longbow.  It's not cut past center!  So to get a perfect tear in paper you have to match spine perfectly so the archers paradox is timed perfectly.  I remember cutting arrows 1/8" at a time to get just the perfect flight from my longbows and older recurves.  And even then sometimes broadheads would hit where you wanted sometimes not.  It was fun, but a lot of work.

Does Denton have an Easton hand held digital bow scale?  I've found those to be scary accurate.  They are flipping expensive, but worth every penny.  I've even used them to measure the trigger pull on my guns.  And they are perfect for setting up Carter true tension releases.

[coachcw]

Rav your brain must hurt crunching all those numbers , I used to really stress that stuff aswell , but often over thaught it. In my bow tech book it says one turn out on each limb equals one pound . I've heard guys talk about the bts being a bit noisy maybe backing the limb out shut it up. It's definatlly close to sixty lbs though and fast . I'm not sure what scale denton has but he likes the good stuff ! I know in the past it was a bad Idea to back of limbs but this thing just shoots lights out ! Dont be a chicken back yours up and run some chrono tests pal. . This weekend I'm gonna shoot some longer ranges and play with arrows . I noticed last night after shooting 60-70 arrows the bottom cam was right on the limb side static dot and it still shot fields and bh's right on . my press wont work on this bow so maybe I will swing by the big r in omak and have him time it just to be sure . Good talking with a sharp cookie like you.

[RadSav]

In my bow tech book it says one turn out on each limb equals one pound . I've heard guys talk about the bts being a bit noisy maybe backing the limb out shut it up. My press wont work on this bow so maybe I will swing by the big r in omak and have him time it just to be sure.

Well, 1# per turn would make sense on those bows.  They've got more than three times the preload as the older bows so sweet.  Probably see less than one pound at full stress and more than 1# at minimum stress with an average of 1#.  No need to mess with mine.

I'd still like to hear what you see by swapping nocks.  I know at 40 yards I've seen 6-8" difference in POI same bow, same arrow, same point, different Carbon Express TCX nock.  Even with a few pounds difference from what you think the 350/66# should be shooting flatter 3 or 4 fletched.  If you are seeing variations try that Easton Micro nock.  It's a pretty good one.  Five years and I've seen not one single variance between color or cavity number.  Wish I could say the same for the G-Nock and the TCX nock.  I may go back to the ACC Pro for 70 bows in Washington.  That would give me the X-Nock - one of my all time favorites.

I have picked up three EZ Green presses for friends over the past few years.  I think the retail price has now dropped to below $400.  Same press as my expensive one just without the fancy wheel and fancy paint.  It's a good one for the money and works well on the pickleforks.

[RadSav]

Sorry for hijacking your thread rosscrazyelk 

[coachcw]

my buddy is gonna  take it down to denton tomorrow an recheck the timming  I'm gonna have him way the arrows and maybe pick up some nocks . one thing denton told me is these bows don't respond to tiller . I really think three fletchs will be in my final set up . thanks again .

[mossback91]

I used to use 3 then went to fobs but now im headed back to 3 vanes.....Not sure why Just like to change stuff up

Everything Ive tried out of my ol hoyt always great though

Now to find out what the bear will do!!! 

By the way you guys really hurt my brain throughout most of this thread Too much tech for me!!!

[RadSav]

one thing denton told me is these bows don't respond to tiller .

He is correct.  Almost impossible to move one cam without moving the other.  It's a great system.  Combined with the CPX limb it's pretty hard to mess it up.

[coachcw]

ok Rav my brain hurts , so here's the combo that i'm gonna test this weekend , gold tip pro hunter 7595/340   at 29 inches three fletch blazers and 100 grain point with a ten grain insert wieght puts the arrow at 403 grains with 12% foc . will be runing it at 65 lbs at 29.5 draw . this should be a opt set up . my theroy is to stay at a legal wieght , decent foc and right near the lght end of the spine limit. Sorry to thread jack ! BTW three fletch.