3 or 4

[RadSav]

What about wraps? Y/N Length? What shafts?  Cut to what length?

I've been punching in raw shaft weight numbers to make the numbers work out right.  And not a dang thing makes sense   Even with four fletch the 350/66# should be more efficient.  Noise should be a big clue.  Between the two there should be only a percentage point different in GR/# and FOC if no wrap is used.  Total drop difference at 40 yards 1.1" difference with the 350 being the flatter shooter.  Looks like you found a magic spot in paradox in the 250's that you do not have with the 350's.  I'm skeptical it will hold long term.  That's really, really pushing the limits of the 250!

Does show that you must have some dag gum good form and that CPXL has some fantastic repeatability

[coachcw]

rav , they are full length right now , they are at 29. knock to insert without wraps , I could easily take an inch off but kinda like the 7.5 grains and if I decide to go back to 30 inch draw it might get close. the balance point was at 12.25 inches on a 29.25 inch arrow I didn't figure out the foc math just know it shoots killer , did I say it shoots killer . I've always been a poundage guy but i'm likeing this set up. As far as form of course it's as close to perfict as it can get and not be a machine  I'm sure the bowtech has nothing to do with it 

[RadSav]

rav , they are full length right now , they are at 29. knock to insert without wraps , I could easily take an inch off but kinda like the 7.5 grains and if I decide to go back to 30 inch draw it might get close. the balance point was at 12.25 inches on a 29.25 inch arrow I didn't figure out the foc math just know it shoots killer , did I say it shoots killer . I've always been a poundage guy but i'm likeing this set up. As far as form of course it's as close to perfict as it can get and not be a machine  I'm sure the bowtech has nothing to do with it 

How are you getting 395 grains from a 29.25" arrow with 7.5 grains per inch?  Shouldn't that be 345 grains finished arrow

[coachcw]

my 350's are 419, they are 28.25 at 8.3gph and the 250's are 29.5 at 7.4 with bull dog knocks  so I took roughl 23 grains off my known weight of the 350's . I don't have an arrow scale here but i'm pretty sure that weight is close .

[TommyH]

Tagged! Good info here. I use a 3, I think Rad should have a sticky thread with all this arrow/spline/FOC and his other great info. There is alot of info that will help alot of people, myself included! Thanks Radsav!

[coachcw]

Ok now im mind screwed here I just did the math and came out with 360 grains ! do you have the insert weights , bull dog nocks and blazer weights ? thanks brian . I guess I need to get ahold of a scale . heck maybe the scale was off when I checked the 350's . I wont doubt your math brother .

[coachcw]

hell maybe I should just pull out the 2419's again ?

[coachcw]

my bow scale is one of cabellas and nine turns off a 70 lbs limb it reads 59lbs , it may be off I just figured it was 61. It's crazy to me how todays bows don't seem to lose to much efficancey backing the limbs down . This brings up a point I was gonna make Rav , do you think that I'm getting these results because these are 70lbs limbs backed down to sixty vrs 60s down tight ?

[RadSav]

Ok now im mind screwed here I just did the math and came out with 360 grains ! do you have the insert weights , bull dog nocks and blazer weights ? thanks brian . I guess I need to get ahold of a scale . heck maybe the scale was off when I checked the 350's . I wont doubt your math brother .

I'm betting those 250's are older shafts and the 350's are newer shafts   Only way I can get things to work out where the 250's at 61# shoot flatter than the 350's at 66# is with a variance in nock throat.  The older TCX nocks were fitted perfect for todays strings.  The more recent ones I've gotten are way too dang tight (I now replace them with Easton Micro Lite nocks).  That reflects in speed and trajectory a whole bunch.  Much more than one might think.  Would be sort of cool to see what would happen if you swap the nocks out and see what happens.

Bull Dog collars should be 4 grains and each Blazer vane should be 6 grains.  Standard CE insert is way light at 11 grains (reason I generaly shoot Vibrake inserts in my Blue Streak/Maxima shafts.  Though those have changed from 23 grains to Hot Tails @ 16 grains).

[RadSav]

my bow scale is one of cabellas and nine turns off a 70 lbs limb it reads 59lbs , it may be off I just figured it was 61. It's crazy to me how todays bows don't seem to lose to much efficancey backing the limbs down . This brings up a point I was gonna make Rav , do you think that I'm getting these results because these are 70lbs limbs backed down to sixty vrs 60s down tight ?

NINE TURNS OUT!!!   That would be a 27# reduction in the old days!  If that held true today you would be shooting that bow at about 45 pounds.  Which would certainly make sense as the 250 spine would then be dead center optimal in spine for the 29.5" CPXL @ 45#.  I might have to call the guys at Bowtech tomorrow and see what they have for poundage reduction per turn.  I'd do it to one of my Bowtechs, but I'm afraid to.  They are shooting just too sic at the moment.

Lightweight max load limbs really are a thing of amazement.  We always knew it was advantageous.  But when Jennings and Carroll came close to it in the past the limbs just could not take it.  The Jennings T-Star was a great shooter, but it was not uncommon for active target shooters to go through multiple sets of limbs in a year.  And that wasn't nothing in preload to what you are seeing today.  Sometimes modern technology IS a good thing.  Not too often in archery but there are times   Max load plus CPX is one heck of a combination and Bowtech has really got it dialed in right now.  You really are not loosing much in efficiency these days with a max load limb like PSE, Bowtech CPX, highend Bear and McPherson when taking some reasonable weight off.  Most of the inefficiencies come if you don't have the adjustability in the string stops.  One of the reasons the new Bear Motive is so impressive with the double adjustable string stops.

If these results were skewed because of the limbs not being tight against the riser you would see a massive improvement in the 350 @ 66# over the 250@61 pounds.  And if that were the case I'd not be banging my head against the wall trying to make sense of the numbers and recollections your posting.  But what you are posting just makes no freakin sense at all   For seamheads like myself that hurts the brain.

I despise paper tuning!  It is so easy to get mislead with paper.  You find the right distance and the right spine you can get perfect holes when nothing at all is optimal. Fact that you are getting field points and broadheads to fly together now that impresses me! Good holes in paper doesn't necessarily mean perfect arrow flight.  Sort of like getting good arrow flight off the shelf of a longbow.  It's not cut past center!  So to get a perfect tear in paper you have to match spine perfectly so the archers paradox is timed perfectly.  I remember cutting arrows 1/8" at a time to get just the perfect flight from my longbows and older recurves.  And even then sometimes broadheads would hit where you wanted sometimes not.  It was fun, but a lot of work.

Does Denton have an Easton hand held digital bow scale?  I've found those to be scary accurate.  They are flipping expensive, but worth every penny.  I've even used them to measure the trigger pull on my guns.  And they are perfect for setting up Carter true tension releases.

[coachcw]

Rav your brain must hurt crunching all those numbers , I used to really stress that stuff aswell , but often over thaught it. In my bow tech book it says one turn out on each limb equals one pound . I've heard guys talk about the bts being a bit noisy maybe backing the limb out shut it up. It's definatlly close to sixty lbs though and fast . I'm not sure what scale denton has but he likes the good stuff ! I know in the past it was a bad Idea to back of limbs but this thing just shoots lights out ! Dont be a chicken back yours up and run some chrono tests pal. . This weekend I'm gonna shoot some longer ranges and play with arrows . I noticed last night after shooting 60-70 arrows the bottom cam was right on the limb side static dot and it still shot fields and bh's right on . my press wont work on this bow so maybe I will swing by the big r in omak and have him time it just to be sure . Good talking with a sharp cookie like you.

[RadSav]

In my bow tech book it says one turn out on each limb equals one pound . I've heard guys talk about the bts being a bit noisy maybe backing the limb out shut it up. My press wont work on this bow so maybe I will swing by the big r in omak and have him time it just to be sure.

Well, 1# per turn would make sense on those bows.  They've got more than three times the preload as the older bows so sweet.  Probably see less than one pound at full stress and more than 1# at minimum stress with an average of 1#.  No need to mess with mine.

I'd still like to hear what you see by swapping nocks.  I know at 40 yards I've seen 6-8" difference in POI same bow, same arrow, same point, different Carbon Express TCX nock.  Even with a few pounds difference from what you think the 350/66# should be shooting flatter 3 or 4 fletched.  If you are seeing variations try that Easton Micro nock.  It's a pretty good one.  Five years and I've seen not one single variance between color or cavity number.  Wish I could say the same for the G-Nock and the TCX nock.  I may go back to the ACC Pro for 70 bows in Washington.  That would give me the X-Nock - one of my all time favorites.

I have picked up three EZ Green presses for friends over the past few years.  I think the retail price has now dropped to below $400.  Same press as my expensive one just without the fancy wheel and fancy paint.  It's a good one for the money and works well on the pickleforks.

[RadSav]

Sorry for hijacking your thread rosscrazyelk 

[coachcw]

my buddy is gonna  take it down to denton tomorrow an recheck the timming  I'm gonna have him way the arrows and maybe pick up some nocks . one thing denton told me is these bows don't respond to tiller . I really think three fletchs will be in my final set up . thanks again .

[mossback91]

I used to use 3 then went to fobs but now im headed back to 3 vanes.....Not sure why Just like to change stuff up

Everything Ive tried out of my ol hoyt always great though

Now to find out what the bear will do!!! 

By the way you guys really hurt my brain throughout most of this thread Too much tech for me!!!