20 dollar registration fee to take hunter safety class SHB 1199

[Skyhigh]

Would love to hear what others think about charging a registration few for hunters safety classess..I apologize if this topic has already been brought up.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/billdocs/2013-14/Pdf/Bills/House%20Bills/1199-S.pdf

(4)(a) Beginning August 1, 2013, the director is authorized to
27 charge a registration fee of not more than twenty dollars for any
28 hunter education training course. This fee must be collected as
29 program income as defined in 50 C.F.R. Sec. 80.120 (2011). Program
30 income may be added to the moneys committed to the grant agreement by
31 the federal agency and the grantee. The program income must be used

[pianoman9701]

It has been brought up already. It's a good fee if it makes people give notice when they're not coming. The classes I teach have up to 30% no show with maxed out attendance. So, others who'd like to attend, can't.

[buckfvr]

I have to wonder if folks who have no intention of taking the class tie up spots just to keep suppressing recruitment.  Much the same way they apply for permits and special hunts only to prevent hunters from drawing them.  IMO 20 bucks wont prevent this, but who knows.....

[pianoman9701]

Then at least $20 will go into the HE program. I believe that $20 will make people more responsible. Many of the no shows are people who've booked multiple classes. Ones that are closest to them may be booked and they're on the waiting list. When the closest one calls them and says they're in, they don't bother or forget to take their names off the others.

[Skyhigh]

I agree it will help with the no-shows as folks will be less likely to burn 20 bucks...Some concerns I have, will it limit kids that are on the fence about getting into hunting? Moneys generated will actually be used for the hunters ed program and not some butterfly or frog project. How about this, volunteer instructors/labor generating an income for WDFW..That just doesnt sit right with me...I too am an instructor.

[buckfvr]

Then at least $20 will go into the HE program. I believe that $20 will make people more responsible. Many of the no shows are people who've booked multiple classes. Ones that are closest to them may be booked and they're on the waiting list. When the closest one calls them and says they're in, they don't bother or forget to take their names off the others.

Could'nt  this info be easily entered in a HE data base to prevent this ??  Maybe the lists could tag persons as to complete or incomplete........Im sure someone knows how to rectify a simple problem like that....I hope.

[pianoman9701]

Maybe that same kid didn't get the opportunity because the class was full. People often don't care enough about something until they take ownership of it. Paying $20 gives people ownership. If they don't have $20, they don't have enough to buy bullets, gas for their rig, or hunting clothes. And, I believe the fee is refundable once they take the class - not sure about that.

[bigtex]

Maybe that same kid didn't get the opportunity because the class was full. People often don't care enough about something until they take ownership of it. Paying $20 gives people ownership. If they don't have $20, they don't have enough to buy bullets, gas for their rig, or hunting clothes. And, I believe the fee is refundable once they take the class - not sure about that.

The fee is not refundable.

But I 100% agree with what you said. If you can't cough up $20 for a one time fee then how can you possibly pay for weapons, ammo, gear, licenses, gas, etc.

The whole "fee will reduce hunters" theme some have said on here doesn't fly with me. 

[pendoreilleadventures]

There is a twenty dollar sign up fee for classes at the Big Horn Show in Spokane every year and all of there classes get filled up no problem.

Not like its a lot of money in the first place you have to pay to play. The fee goes to play for ammo and other expenses I don't have an issue with it.

[bear hunter]

It has been brought up already. It's a good fee if it makes people give notice when they're not coming. The classes I teach have up to 30% no show with maxed out attendance. So, others who'd like to attend, can't.

I don't disagree and don't mind paying the 20.00. I just hope it is a one time fee if the child doesn't pass. My buddy kid had to take it twice,because the first instructor didn't let the kids dad help with the reading. So he failed. I have a learning disability and so did his kid. I don't think it is far to charge ever time. I tried to take the masterhunter ed. I was told by the fish and game to tell the instructor that I need more time on the test because of my learning disability. He said no. I took the test and was only able to answer 75 out of the 100. The last 25 was the easy ones true and false. I got 55% if I just had time to answer the last 25 I might of passed. They charged 20... for the test and now it is 50.... but they are not taking any more applications at this time. 

[Blacktail Sniper]

What bear hunter brings up is an excellent point/question.  I looked at the proposed amendment in the link at the start of this thread, and it appears as currently written that the fee is to be collected at registration for each class.

"(4)(a) Beginning August 1, 2013, the director is authorized to
27 charge a registration fee of not more than twenty dollars for any
28 hunter education training course."

Now would a retest be up to the individual instructor?   Or would the student be required to sign up (register again) and attend another complete class?   Not sure how the training system is set up now, so maybe that would not be an issue.

Anybody on here in the Hunter's Ed loop have any input???

[Blacktail Sniper]

And another point, regarding those with learning disability problems (especially since this is State sponsored and sanctioned event), I would think that by advising the instructor up front from the get go about this, that the ADA Act's protections apply and the instructor would be required by law to provide or allow reasonable accomodations for the particular student.

[jackmaster]

i honestly think it should cost more, i know alot of the HE instructors do it for free anywyas, and it is kind of irritating when there is a 20 dollar sign up fee that if you wish is refundable at the completion of the class and then there are those few people that actually want their money back instead of donating to the program, its a shame for sure, those instructors go out of their way to help young hunters out and they sometimes dont have the best training aids and those donations help to improve those aids. someday when i am retired i would like to be an instuctor myself, a fella gets alot of satisfaction out of helpn the youngsters

[BIGINNER]

I THINK THE $20 SHOULD GO TOWARD THE KID'S LICENSE IF THEY PASS.   

[Blacktail Sniper]

I THINK THE $20 SHOULD GO TOWARD THE KID'S LICENSE IF THEY PASS.   

Thay already get a pretty decent discount until they turn 16 as it is now.   

[BIGINNER]

DO THEY? I DIDNT KNOW THAT

[Rainier10]

Yeah, I just bought my license, my wifes and my daughters, the kids license was less than half of ours.  I think everything is half price and kids don't have to by a fishing license depending on how young they are.  Mine is 10 years old, not sure what the cutoff is for the fishing license but the hunting stuff is half price until they are 16.  It is a great deal and applies to special permit applications also.

[arees]

1) I believe the instructors can (and some do) already charge a fee for the class and can (and some do) refund some of it if you show up and take the test.

2) If 1) is true, this bill does not provide any of the deterrent benefits people ascribe to it because those deterrents can (and in some places are) already be implemented now.

3) If 2) is true, this is just a money grab by WDFW.

4) What part of this bill requires the money collected to go back into more Hunter Ed classes or supporting those classes in any way?

5) Even if this money was required to go into Hunter Ed, what would prevent them from cutting money from other sources?

Please refute these points if you can.  They are numbered for your ease of response.

[bigtex]

1) I believe the instructors can (and some do) already charge a fee for the class and can (and some do) refund some of it if you show up and take the test.

2) If 1) is true, this bill does not provide any of the deterrent benefits people ascribe to it because those deterrents can (and in some places are) already be implemented now.

3) If 2) is true, this is just a money grab by WDFW.

4) What part of this bill requires the money collected to go back into more Hunter Ed classes or supporting those classes in any way?

5) Even if this money was required to go into Hunter Ed, what would prevent them from cutting money from other sources?

Please refute these points if you can.  They are numbered for your ease of response.

1- Money is being pocketed by the instructors, not being provided to WDFW. How much money is being given to these instructors? $1,000 or $100,000? Under the current system WDFW doesn’t know

2- Yes it will provide a deterrent. Right now the courses that do require a fee are collected during the course, not at sign up. This bill would require it at sign-up

4- The bill requires it to go into the Hunter Ed program.

5- The only authority who could divert/move money is the legislature, WDFW can’t do this on their own.

Nobody mentioned it, but this bill passed the House unanimously!

[Smossy]

Would love to hear what others think about charging a registration few for hunters safety classess..I apologize if this topic has already been brought up.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/billdocs/2013-14/Pdf/Bills/House%20Bills/1199-S.pdf

(4)(a) Beginning August 1, 2013, the director is authorized to
27 charge a registration fee of not more than twenty dollars for any
28 hunter education training course. This fee must be collected as
29 program income as defined in 50 C.F.R. Sec. 80.120 (2011). Program
30 income may be added to the moneys committed to the grant agreement by
31 the federal agency and the grantee. The program income must be used

I think its fair. 

[Skyhigh]

Nobody mentioned it, but this bill passed the House unanimously!

In this bill there is minimum age requirements for taking the hunters safety course..I believe it to be 8 yo..All our classes that I am involved with have been free of charge, we do however put a donation bucket up. The money generated from this covers costs of various nick nack supplies, hall rental, sometimes pizza on the final day..

Someone mentioned above that this 20 dollar fee was refundable after they completed the class? I cant find anything about that in the document,,can you explaine that comment

[Elkaholic daWg]

Nobody mentioned it, but this bill passed the House unanimously!

In this bill there is minimum age requirements for taking the hunters safety course..I believe it to be 8 yo..All our classes that I am involved with have been free of charge, we do however put a donation bucket up. The money generated from this covers costs of various nick nack supplies, hall rental, sometimes pizza on the final day..

Someone mentioned above that this 20 dollar fee was refundable after they completed the class? I cant find anything about that in the document,,can you explaine that comment

 As does it work with my friends classes,  and Is mostly put back in to the program by them......NOW where will it go? Bigger Govt, more regulation

1) I believe the instructors can (and some do) already charge a fee for the class and can (and some do) refund some of it if you show up and take the test.

Please refute these points if you can.  They are numbered for your ease of response.

1- Money is being pocketed by the instructors, not being provided to WDFW. How much money is being given to these instructors? $1,000 or $100,000? Under the current system WDFW doesn’t know

 If I were an instructor, I just might find that statement offensive since I have seen how much time and effort he put's into those classes!

[Bob33]

1- Money is being pocketed by the instructors, not being provided to WDFW. How much money is being given to these instructors? $1,000 or $100,000? Under the current system WDFW doesn’t know

Yes, there are always a few bad apples but to make a statement like that is offensive to the vast majority of dedicated volunteer instructors who don't get a penny.

[pianoman9701]

1- Money is being pocketed by the instructors, not being provided to WDFW. How much money is being given to these instructors? $1,000 or $100,000? Under the current system WDFW doesn’t know

Yes, there are always a few bad apples but to make a statement like that is offensive to the vast majority of dedicated volunteer instructors who don't get a penny.

  x 2. I get nothing from HE but the satisfaction of helping people become hunters. I'm not alone.

[arees]

1- Money is being pocketed by the instructors, not being provided to WDFW. How much money is being given to these instructors? $1,000 or $100,000? Under the current system WDFW doesn’t know

Yes, there are always a few bad apples but to make a statement like that is offensive to the vast majority of dedicated volunteer instructors who don't get a penny.

At least it is an interesting new argument.  This bill is now intended to protect us from thieving hunter ed instructors.  Did I miss the part of the bill that prohibits the instructors from charging additional fees?  Does this bill state that all the instructor expenses that were being covered by the fees they were charging will now be covered by WDFW?

If this passes, will we see WDFW's $20 fee plus the instructor's fee?

Here are a few selections from the Hunter Ed registration site:

From a course in Bonney Lake:

Special Instructions for All Students
In order to Register for Hunter Education Classes with Evergreen SureFire FireArms Safety Club, you must do the following:
1. Register Online & Send in your $25.00 Refundable Deposit 30 Days Prior to First Date of Class
2. Write a $25.00 Refundable Deposit Check Payable to: Evergreen SureFire
3. Mail Refundable Deposit Check 30 Days Prior to First Date of Class to:
xxxx
4. If Refundable Deposit is not Received 30 Days Prior to First Date of Class, Your Spot will be Forfeited and given to Someone Else
5. Do Not Call Swiss Park Sportsmen

From a class in Oldtown:

Special Instructions for All Students
Welcome to hunter education. A MANDATORY orientation for this class will be on March 25 from 6:00-9:00 PM at the Rotary Park Building in Oldtown, ID. The class will take place from 6:00 PM to 9:00 PM, Mon, Wed, Thur, and Fri April 1-5. Saturday March 6th there will be a field skills evaluation beginning promplty at 8 AM at the Newport Gun Club. There is a $20.00 deposit payable to, xxx. Please send payment to xxxx to hold your position in this class. If your fee is not paid prior to March 18, your name could be removed from roster to make room for someone else. Students 18 yrs. and under must download, have signed a copy of the Parent Agreement form. Students 12 yrs. and under must have a parent or guardian with them at all times during class.

From a class in Amboy:

Special Instructions for All Students
March 28 NO CLASS pay $20.00 deposit & pick-up book to guarantee spot in class. Money refunded on range day. Class held up-stairs at fire hall. Manditory attendance all classes & range day. All students age 11 & under must have adult with them in class. All students 18 & under signed parent permission slip, found on line WDFW web site.

Everything this bill claims to do can already be done except giving the money to WDFW.  If WDFW came out and said "we need more money and this is a way to get it" it would be a more believable argument.

[bearpaw]

I am opposed because basically this is another new tax/fee on people wanting to become hunters or shooters. A few years from now they will raise this tax as that is how taxes work. But, if hunters want this tax/fee then I can't see worrying about it.

Are we going to ask for a new tax on ammo too? 

[bigtex]

1- Money is being pocketed by the instructors, not being provided to WDFW. How much money is being given to these instructors? $1,000 or $100,000? Under the current system WDFW doesn’t know

Yes, there are always a few bad apples but to make a statement like that is offensive to the vast majority of dedicated volunteer instructors who don't get a penny.

  x 2. I get nothing from HE but the satisfaction of helping people become hunters. I'm not alone.

I didn't make it to be offensive. Watch the House committees on the bill. WDFW doesn't know how much is coming into those courses because there is no accounting system in place under state law.

[Tman]

Ive never been to a he class where the deposit wasnt refunded or offered by the end of the class. Its simply a deterant to stop people from taking up the limited seats and then not showing.

To those of you complaining, step up and be an instructor so you can do it "your way", or quit whining.

[danderson]

Bigtex, with these comments you just showed your true self, do you have  any idea who build the current Hunter Education program, no you don't because there the ones that your degrading.



 

1- Money is being pocketed by the instructors, not being provided to WDFW. How much money is being given to these instructors? $1,000 or $100,000? Under the current system WDFW doesn’t know

Yes, there are always a few bad apples but to make a statement like that is offensive to the vast majority of dedicated volunteer instructors who don't get a penny.

  x 2. I get nothing from HE but the satisfaction of helping people become hunters. I'm not alone.

[bearpaw]

Ive never been to a he class where the deposit wasnt refunded or offered by the end of the class. Its simply a deterant to stop people from taking up the limited seats and then not showing.

To those of you complaining, step up and be an instructor so you can do it "your way", or quit whining.

Maybe I misread, but doesn't this bill create a $20 fee for WDFW, a nonrefundable fee?

[ghosthunter]

Well I don't know of any H.E. program getting thousands. And I have been doing it around 18 years.

The problems , some already stated.
No Shows as much as 25%.
Donations to a Hunter Ed Program (any city) both in cash and goods unrecorded.
Solicitation of goods in the name of H.E. unrecorded.

As a instructor I do not want to collect money for the state. If the state wants the money they need to collect it and keep track of it. Thus when a student signs up for my class on line.

If people want to donate I tell them to give it to the sponsoring club not to me. I just stay out of it.

[h2ofowlr]

Good deal!  Charge $20 each time you take the course.  I know some parents push their kids through it way to early in order to put them in for special hunts.  This may help get people that want to and are ready for the course.  All in all, $20 is a small fee to pay.

[Skyvalhunter]

Heck why not charge $40 the general fund needs more money anyhow

[arees]

Make it $1000 and there will be plenty of open seats in the classes.  Problem solved.

[bigtex]

How am I degrading the program? Did you watch the bills where WDFW testified? I am guessing you didn't. If you did you would see the WDFW LE Chief talk about how WDFW doesn't know how much cash is flowing into these "donation" sites. Why? Because there is no statewide accounting system. Some classes ask for donations, others don't.

If you have an issue with my statement then watch the video which I have posted on this site and you will see WDFW saying the same thing!

Bigtex, with these comments you just showed your true self, do you have  any idea who build the current Hunter Education program, no you don't because there the ones that your degrading.



 

1- Money is being pocketed by the instructors, not being provided to WDFW. How much money is being given to these instructors? $1,000 or $100,000? Under the current system WDFW doesn’t know

Yes, there are always a few bad apples but to make a statement like that is offensive to the vast majority of dedicated volunteer instructors who don't get a penny.

  x 2. I get nothing from HE but the satisfaction of helping people become hunters. I'm not alone.

[bigtex]

Heck why not charge $40 the general fund needs more money anyhow

All WDFW Fishing and Hunting licenses go into the Wildlife Fund. Very little WDFW money goes into the general fund anymore

[bigtex]

To hear/watch WDFW's reasoning on the fee and going away from "donations" watch this hearing:

http://www.tvw.org/index.php?option=com_tvwplayer&eventID=2013010133#start=830&stop=986

Obviously I do not think HE Instructors are making a second income off of this program. Is there a possibility some are getting some extra cash (getting $70 in donations for $50 worth of supplies) maybe. This new system will eliminate that. Instead of instructors asking for donations they will simply submit receipts to WDFW for reimbursement.

If any of you purchase something for your job using your own money and they reimburse you what do they go by; your word or a receipt?

[Elkaholic daWg]

BOTH saying it makes it right??? Sounds more  like a couple govt. workers forgetting they are public servants. These instuctors deserve  more respect than that. How much did many spend on classroom tools (weapons) that DFW decided to replace  with their "fake" guns? Regulate and fee up! (The new name for Washington taxes before the 60% majority was killed again by  the gang of 6)
 If we can't trust HE instructors any more than government workers we are in BIG trouble. and funny how those that can't be trusted ASSUME that no one else can be either.....

[SCRUBS]

I am opposed because basically this is another new tax/fee on people wanting to become hunters or shooters. A few years from now they will raise this tax as that is how taxes work. But, if hunters want this tax/fee then I can't see worrying about it.

Are we going to ask for a new tax on ammo too? 

 

[Bob33]

A $20 registration fee is alresdy charged to every student taking the online course. It is collected at time of online registration, just as this bill would do for traditional classes.

I'm curious to know why no one has complained about that existing policy?

[Elkaholic daWg]

 Maybe because no one has to volunteer to give it? Done by a machine? Can it give the "hands on" part? No, but an instructor basically volunteers to do that right?