To neuter or not to neuter?

[steve04]

7month old Gsp/weim. What is the pros and cons for neutering or not neutering a hunting dog?

[Stilly bay]

I let them keep their chestnuts for a few years. IMO neutering before complete maturity and development CAN lead to anxiety issues among other things.

I have four males living together. Two were altered at age three-ish, the two youngest are still packing (for now) so far I have had zero problems with everyone getting along.

[T-Bone]

I always get my dogs neutered. You will note no real change in the dog's personality or hunting urge.

I always find the real "scare" is with the dog's owner who seems to act like his own cajones are in danger of removal.

Tom

[Sagehawker]

I have always been advised to wait until after one year for proper development to have occurred.  That was both my vizsla and gsp.  And that was 15 years ago.  Currently I have an altered male who came that way and a female Britt.  I don't know if that is the current thinking on altering males.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[WRL]

Here is a link to a study concerning neutering and early neutering.

Personally, if you are just neutering for the sake of neutering, I would not neuter until about 8 or 9 years old.

If you need to neuter (have intact bitches in the house) and its a hassle to manage them, then I would wait until about 15 months of age. It DOES affect skeletal growth so you will at least want to wait for the growth plates to close ( 12-15 months of age).

The study looks at the effect (or lack of) hormones on cancer risks and CCL tears among other things.

http://workingretriever.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=health&action=display&thread=67

WRL

[AspenBud]

Don't have it done at any younger than six months.

Intact males will do just about anything to get at a bitch in heat and they can literally smell them from miles away.

Unless you are a breeder or are competing with your dog there really isn't any reason not to have it done. Your dog will still hunt and you'll have fewer behavioral issues if it's a house dog.

Ask ten vets what they think and I think you'll find little deviation in their answers.

[L-ofalab]

Don't have it done at any younger than six months.

Intact males will do just about anything to get at a bitch in heat and they can literally smell them from miles away.

Unless you are a breeder or are competing with your dog there really isn't any reason not to have it done. Your dog will still hunt and you'll have fewer behavioral issues if it's a house dog.

Ask ten vets what they think and I think you'll find little deviation in their answers.

Your vet will tell you to spay/neuter so they can make money! Read the website from CA state college and you will wait. The only dog I have neutered blew his cruciate ligament and he was neutered at the damned vets advise at 6 months. Never again. There was a study agreeing with this one, I think it was a Minnesota college that did that one

http://news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=10498

[Jonathan_S]

Don't have it done at any younger than six months.

Intact males will do just about anything to get at a bitch in heat and they can literally smell them from miles away.

Unless you are a breeder or are competing with your dog there really isn't any reason not to have it done. Your dog will still hunt and you'll have fewer behavioral issues if it's a house dog.

Ask ten vets what they think and I think you'll find little deviation in their answers.

Your vet will tell you to spay/neuter so they can make money! Read the website from CA state college and you will wait. The only dog I have neutered blew his cruciate ligament and he was neutered at the damned vets advise at 6 months. Never again. There was a study agreeing with this one, I think it was a Minnesota college that did that one

http://news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=10498

I've heard from a retired vet that unless absolutely necessary to not neuter until the dog is older than 18 months.

[Happy Gilmore]

Full bone and muscle development won't occur before 16-24 months. Hormones affect the growth of both.


Nutts will not determine a dogs behavioral attributes but, they can affect it.

[BLUEBULLS]

neutering reduces the risk of quite a few health problems at an older age.

[Happy Gilmore]

neutering reduces the risk of quite a few health problems at an older age.

Depends on if you're reading PETA's supported studies or not. There are just as many studies that counter that opinion.

[Curly]

This may be a dumb question but..................  How come veterinarians don't give male dogs vasectomies or bitches get tubes tied?  If the reason for castration or spaying is for birth control, then is removal of ovaries and testes just a cheaper way to go or what? 

[BLUEBULLS]

neutering reduces the risk of quite a few health problems at an older age.

Depends on if you're reading PETA's supported studies or not. There are just as many studies that counter that opinion.

I just listen to my wife, the Vet Tech. I've learned not to second guess her. I'm always wrong.

[Stilly bay]

This may be a dumb question but..................  How come veterinarians don't give male dogs vasectomies or bitches get tubes tied?  If the reason for castration or spaying is for birth control, then is removal of ovaries and testes just a cheaper way to go or what? 

its quicker, easier, and inexpensive not to mention relatively complication free and 100% effective.

[AspenBud]

Don't have it done at any younger than six months.

Intact males will do just about anything to get at a bitch in heat and they can literally smell them from miles away.

Unless you are a breeder or are competing with your dog there really isn't any reason not to have it done. Your dog will still hunt and you'll have fewer behavioral issues if it's a house dog.

Ask ten vets what they think and I think you'll find little deviation in their answers.

Your vet will tell you to spay/neuter so they can make money! Read the website from CA state college and you will wait. The only dog I have neutered blew his cruciate ligament and he was neutered at the damned vets advise at 6 months. Never again. There was a study agreeing with this one, I think it was a Minnesota college that did that one

http://news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=10498

Your vet will tell you to spay or neuter because they spent $100,000-$250,000 to get through the hell that is veterinary school and they are essentially taught that in most cases this is what you do. They don't just see cherry picked studies found online in vet school.

Sure, they make money off it. But I'll guarantee you that they'll make far more money off a dog that comes down with mammary cancer because it wasn't spayed, assuming the owner wants to try to save the dog, which most do.

The above said, if you press most vets I think many will agree a lot of it has to do with population control and your fellow man's tendency to be an irresponsible dog owner. In Europe you see very few spayed or neutered dogs, but far fewer in shelters. They aren't all winding up in the bottom of ponds out there, the culture surrounding dogs is just different.

The only dog I have neutered blew his cruciate ligament and he was neutered at the damned vets advise at 6 months. Never again.

I've seen plenty of guys who have intact dogs say theirs did the same thing. Lots of factors can contribute to that. Weight, dog out of shape, breed, breeding, and so on.

Ole Roy, the 90 lbs lab who spent the winter sitting on the couch is at a much higher risk for that type of injury than a 50 lbs dart that spent the winter next to the quad and in the field.

neutering reduces the risk of quite a few health problems at an older age.

Depends on if you're reading PETA's supported studies or not. There are just as many studies that counter that opinion.

I just listen to my wife, the Vet Tech. I've learned not to second guess her. I'm always wrong.

Yeah, I always like the "excuse me, who went to school to learn about this stuff and who has a decade of experience doing it?" conversation.   

This may be a dumb question but..................  How come veterinarians don't give male dogs vasectomies or bitches get tubes tied?  If the reason for castration or spaying is for birth control, then is removal of ovaries and testes just a cheaper way to go or what? 

its quicker, easier, and inexpensive not to mention relatively complication free and 100% effective.

In the case of neutering I think it also has to do with behavioral issues. No nads = fewer "trouble causing" hormones.

[AspenBud]

Look, you can guys can debate this topic and beat it to a bloody pulp  but the bottom line is for most guys, and gals, it comes down to what suits your lifestyle.

If you can handle keeping your female dog locked up for part of hunting season potentially, don't mind spotting on your rug, and dealing with securing the dog so it doesn't have an encounter with a male, skip spaying if that's what you want.

If you can handle issues with aggression when dogs in heat are near, escape artist attempts to get at dogs in heat, marking, etc, keep your male dog intact.

I just don't think the average dog owner needs an intact dog or is prepared for the extra work that entails. That doesn't mean you should have it done before six months, but it also doesn't mean you need to wait much beyond that either.

Vets will frequently tell you to have it done at around six months. Part of that is because of what they were taught in school regarding the health risks of waiting too long and part of it has to do with the fact that the surgery is less complicated on young dogs (less developed dogs hemorrhage less, etc).

Good luck whichever way you go on your decision.

[AspenBud]

Your vet will tell you to spay/neuter so they can make money!

As an aside, the average salary of a veterinarian coming out of school in the United States is $60,000. No, I didn't forget a zero.

It's harder to get into veterinary school than medical school and there are doctors out there who flunked out of veterinary school before going to medical school. But your average vet does not make anywhere near what a doctor does and they come out with just as much debt.

[Stilly bay]

Look, you can guys can debate this topic and beat it to a bloody pulp  but the bottom line is for most guys, and gals, it comes down to what suits your lifestyle.

OK 

here is something incredibly interesting on cancer and hip/joint problems in dogs altered before 12 months of age.
http://www.akcchf.org/news-events/news/health-implications-in-early.html
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055937
http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf
if you don't like to read:
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/02/22/uc-davis-researchers-discover-early-dog-spaying-neutering-increases-chances-of-disease/


recent studies have shown early altering has negative side effect especially where anxiety is concerned. its still up for debate, but I have no doubt that early altering isn't great for physical development either.
I realize dogs and humans are not the same, but lets say we removed a human child's testicles or ovaries before puberty, do you think they would develop normally physically as well as mentally? not a chance.

But you are right, many times we have to compromise what is best for our animals with what suits our lifestyle. Bitches in heat are just a pain in the ass to deal with and I wouldn't want to deal with one unless she had some serious potential for breeding down the road. not to mention the fact that cancer is a bigger risk with each heat cycle.
Intact males that have been well trained are no trouble around females, sure it piques their interest and they do some tooth chattering and they may really want to get some - but I have yet to see a well trained intact male act as uncontrollably as you described around a female in heat. And if they are left unsupervised in the yard only to follow their nose to the bleeding bitch down the road, well thats all on the owner. Intact or not, dogs shouldn't be left to their own devices.

One thing I do know that is straight up wrong and that most of us can agree upon is: the early altering that many animal shelters promote. Puppies getting altered at four months or earlier is no good for the dog or the owner as I have seen some of the basket cases that can be created from those practices. But like you said it is to protect against human carelessness.
it takes a good deal of responsibility to keep intact animals, but really its not rocket science or that much more effort, but if someone can't fathom or respect those responsibilities they probably shouldn't be owning a dog in the first place - intact or otherwise.

[mossback91]

I like to wait around 2 years.....so my dog can mature and develop fully 

[AspenBud]

I realize dogs and humans are not the same, but lets say we removed a human child's testicles or ovaries before puberty, do you think they would develop normally physically as well as mentally? not a chance.

Ask a Castrado. Their voices never developed correctly as a result of such procedures. Some thought their singing was great.   

Intact males that have been well trained are no trouble around females

From what I gather from friends of mine who run dogs in field trials (both AF sanctioned and simply fun events) females in heat are run after everyone else has run...and for a reason.

but I have yet to see a well trained intact male act as uncontrollably as you described around a female in heat.

I'm friends with the breeder of my newest Pointer. My wife and I used to look after their dogs when they would go out of town and when their females went in heat they generally warned us about certain males that would be combative with other males in the house. Two of their dogs (not when we watched them) took trips to the vet hospital because of incidents like that and one of the occasions led to a dog losing a leg after it was fractured and something weird showed up on the x-ray (incidentally, it was a cancer warned about by proponents of not neutering, the dog had been a breeding male for 10 years before he was fixed).

One thing I do know that is straight up wrong and that most of us can agree upon is: the early altering that many animal shelters promote.

I agree because I can see the physical differences in two of my dogs that got pulled from shelters (I got them from rescues). Both get mistaken for females and their muscular structure is not the same as their unaltered counterparts. That said, in a lot of places shelters can't start the adoption process until dogs are fixed, as in by law, and they often simply don't have the room to make waiting feasible. The same applies to rescues.

Puppies getting altered at four months or earlier is no good for the dog or the owner as I have seen some of the basket cases

Right now by best Pointer was a rescued dog that got pulled from a shelter in Kentucky. He was neutered at probably 2-4 months at that shelter before the rescue got him. Most people tell me how great he looks, how fit he is, and how sweet he is. That dog will, and has, hunted himself bloody looking for grouse and I've hunted him for hours at a time. He was a complete maniac as a puppy but has grown into a stellar house dog. He can be touchy when new pups come into the house and before I got my female spayed he was downright dangerous, something that changed within two weeks of her getting fixed. That dog is every bit as driven as the trial dogs I've run him next to and every bit as capable of hunting as long and hard. He's not as disciplined, in fact he's a meat dog that points and that's about it, but at almost 6 years of age he's still my go to dog. He's not a basket case, just a Pointer.   

[Stilly bay]

Ask a Castrado. Their voices never developed correctly as a result of such procedures. Some thought their singing was great.   

too bad they can't get it up.

From what I gather from friends of mine who run dogs in field trials (both AF sanctioned and simply fun events) females in heat are run after everyone else has run...and for a reason.

perhaps I shouldn't have said " no trouble" bitches in heat are bad news at a field trial or anywhere else that intact male dogs need to focus. I don't feel they are out of control and impossible to deal with in everyday situations.  YMMV.

I'm friends with the breeder of my newest Pointer. My wife and I used to look after their dogs when they would go out of town and when their females went in heat they generally warned us about certain males that would be combative with other males in the house. Two of their dogs (not when we watched them) took trips to the vet hospital because of incidents like that and one of the occasions led to a dog losing a leg after it was fractured and something weird showed up on the x-ray (incidentally, it was a cancer warned about by proponents of not neutering, the dog had been a breeding male for 10 years before he was fixed).

once again this proves your mileage may vary. I was mainly referring to keeping intact males together and not with intact females in heat. if a bitch in heat is around and you suspect the males are going to start posturing, separate them and lock em up for craps sake. like I stated earlier it take just a little extra effort to keep the situation manageable.

proponents of not neutering early say it reduces the risk of cancer it doesn't eliminate it. not smoking greatly reduces the risk of lung cancer but you can still get lung cancer even if you haven never even smelled a cigarette before.

Right now by best Pointer was a rescued dog that got pulled from a shelter in Kentucky. He was neutered at probably 2-4 months at that shelter before the rescue got him. Most people tell me how great he looks, how fit he is, and how sweet he is. That dog will, and has, hunted himself bloody looking for grouse and I've hunted him for hours at a time. He was a complete maniac as a puppy but has grown into a stellar house dog. He can be touchy when new pups come into the house and before I got my female spayed he was downright dangerous, something that changed within two weeks of her getting fixed. That dog is every bit as driven as the trial dogs I've run him next to and every bit as capable of hunting as long and hard. He's not as disciplined, in fact he's a meat dog that points and that's about it, but at almost 6 years of age he's still my go to dog. He's not a basket case, just a Pointer. 

it looks like your mileage did vary - I never said early altering WOULD lead to anxiety problems, I said it CAN. It was a suspicion I held quite some time after seeing many early spays or neuters with anxiety issues. I read a study on it last year that strengthened my suspicions greatly, I wish I could find it because it was very interesting. I will look for it again later on tonight.
anyway its kind of a double edge sword since many shelters and rescues promote early spay and neuter to try and turn the tide of unwanted pets and pet pregnancies but in some  cases these animals wind up back in the shelter or rescue because their new owners just can deal with them.  FWIW, the good far outweighs the bad and I hope that shelters continue doing what they can; but for someone purchasing a puppy for a companion or hunting dog they might want to make an educated decision for themselves on when to neuter if they have the choice available.

alright, now its time for sweeping generalizations from all those who spayed or neutered early and their dogs turned out just fine.

[AspenBud]

proponents of not neutering early say it reduces the risk of cancer it doesn't eliminate it. not smoking greatly reduces the risk of lung cancer but you can still get lung cancer even if you haven never even smelled a cigarette before.

Conversely some people can do the equivalent of throwing a nuclear bomb at themselves by eating badly, drinking too much, not exercising, and smoking and they still live to 100. While I wouldn't recommend that, it does demonstrate something that I think plays a bigger role.

Good genes.

If you want a better chance at a cancer free dog or a dog free of other issues it still boils down to researching breeds, breeders, health certs, and pedigrees.

I rolled the dice with my two rescues, but for all I know they are ticking time bombs. At least with my newest dog I know where she comes from and what happened to many of the dogs before her.

Good discussion.   

[mjbskwim]

Here is a link to a study concerning neutering and early neutering.

Personally, if you are just neutering for the sake of neutering, I would not neuter until about 8 or 9 years old.

If you need to neuter (have intact bitches in the house) and its a hassle to manage them, then I would wait until about 15 months of age. It DOES affect skeletal growth so you will at least want to wait for the growth plates to close ( 12-15 months of age).

The study looks at the effect (or lack of) hormones on cancer risks and CCL tears among other things.

http://workingretriever.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=health&action=display&thread=67

WRL

Really? You use a link that goes to a study on Golden Retrievers?
Thee most interbred diseased breed of dogs there is?
Golden breeders are notorious for breeding along family lines. One in Tacoma had 2 dogs,one spring that did not develop hip sockets. I saw both dogs randomly,not by design.
Worst article to use as a case study.
Crap,most GR are lucky to walk at all.

[Stilly bay]

Here is a link to a study concerning neutering and early neutering.

Personally, if you are just neutering for the sake of neutering, I would not neuter until about 8 or 9 years old.

If you need to neuter (have intact bitches in the house) and its a hassle to manage them, then I would wait until about 15 months of age. It DOES affect skeletal growth so you will at least want to wait for the growth plates to close ( 12-15 months of age).

The study looks at the effect (or lack of) hormones on cancer risks and CCL tears among other things.

http://workingretriever.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=health&action=display&thread=67

WRL

Really? You use a link that goes to a study on Golden Retrievers?
Thee most interbred diseased breed of dogs there is?
Golden breeders are notorious for breeding along family lines. One in Tacoma had 2 dogs,one spring that did not develop hip sockets. I saw both dogs randomly,not by design.
Worst article to use as a case study.
Crap,most GR are lucky to walk at all.

If most goldens are lucky to walk at all and so prone to hip dysplasia as  you suggest, then what better breed is there to do a study on? or did you read the article before you clicked post reply?

The article:

"Neutering, and the age at which a dog is neutered, may affect the animal’s risk for developing certain cancers and joint diseases, according to a new study of golden retrievers by a team of researchers at the University of California, Davis.

The study, which examined the health records of 759 golden retrievers, found a surprising doubling of hip dysplasia among male dogs neutered before one year of age. This and other results were published Feb. 13 in the online scientific journal PLOS ONE.

“The study results indicate that dog owners and service-dog trainers should carefully consider when to have their male or female dogs neutered,” said lead investigator Benjamin Hart, a distinguished professor emeritus in the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine.

“It is important to remember, however, that because different dog breeds have different vulnerabilities to various diseases, the effects of early and late neutering also may vary from breed to breed,” he said.

While results of the new study are revealing, Hart said the relationship between neutering and disease-risk remains a complex issue. For example, the increased incidence of joint diseases among early-neutered dogs is likely a combination of the effect of neutering on the young dog’s growth plates as well as the increase in weight on the joints that is commonly seen in neutered dogs.

Dog owners in the United States are overwhelmingly choosing to neuter their dogs, in large part to prevent pet overpopulation or avoid unwanted behaviors. In the U.S., surgical neutering — known as spaying in females — is usually done when the dog is less than one year old.

In Europe, however, neutering is generally avoided by owners and trainers and not promoted by animal health authorities, Hart said.

During the past decade, some studies have indicated that neutering can have several adverse health effects for certain dog breeds. Those studies examined individual diseases using data drawn from one breed or pooled from several breeds.

Against that backdrop, Hart and colleagues launched their study, using a single hospital database. The study was designed to examine the effects of neutering on the risks of several diseases in the same breed, distinguishing between males and females and between early or late neutering and non-neutering.

The researchers chose to focus on the golden retriever because it is one of the most popular breeds in the U.S. and Europe and is vulnerable to various cancers and joint disorders. The breed also is favored for work as a service dog.

The research team reviewed the records of female and male golden retrievers, ranging in age from 1 to 8 years, that had been examined at UC Davis’ William R. Pritchard Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital for two joint disorders and three cancers: hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear, lymphosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma and mast cell tumor. The dogs were classified as intact (not neutered), neutered early (before 12 months age), or neutered late (at or after 12 months age).

Joint disorders and cancers are of particular interest because neutering removes the male dog’s testes and the female’s ovaries, interrupting production of certain hormones that play key roles in important body processes such as closure of bone growth plates, and regulation of the estrous cycle in female dogs.

The study revealed that, for all five diseases analyzed, the disease rates were significantly higher in both males and females that were neutered either early or late compared with intact (non-neutered) dogs.

Specifically, early neutering was associated with an increase in the occurrence of hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear and lymphosarcoma in males and of cranial cruciate ligament tear in females. Late neutering was associated with the subsequent occurrence of mast cell tumors and hemangiosarcoma in females.

In most areas, the findings of this study were consistent with earlier studies, suggesting similar increases in disease risks. The new study, however, was the first to specifically report an increased risk of late neutering for mast cell tumors and hemangiosarcoma.

Furthermore, the new study showed a surprising 100 percent increase, or doubling, of the incidence of hip dysplasia among early-neutered males. Earlier studies had reported a 17 percent increase among all neutered dogs compared to all non-neutered dogs, indicating the importance of the new study in making gender and age-of-neutering comparisons.

Other researchers on this UC Davis study were: Gretel Torres de la Riva, Thomas Farver and Lynette Hart, School of Veterinary Medicine; Anita Oberbauer, Department of Animal Science; Locksley Messam, Department of Public Health Sciences; and Neil Willits, Department of Statistics."

[Happy Gilmore]

One page articles and heresay is easier to adopt as the rule than anything else..

[AspenBud]

Here is a link to a study concerning neutering and early neutering.

Personally, if you are just neutering for the sake of neutering, I would not neuter until about 8 or 9 years old.

If you need to neuter (have intact bitches in the house) and its a hassle to manage them, then I would wait until about 15 months of age. It DOES affect skeletal growth so you will at least want to wait for the growth plates to close ( 12-15 months of age).

The study looks at the effect (or lack of) hormones on cancer risks and CCL tears among other things.

http://workingretriever.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=health&action=display&thread=67

WRL

Really? You use a link that goes to a study on Golden Retrievers?
Thee most interbred diseased breed of dogs there is?
Golden breeders are notorious for breeding along family lines. One in Tacoma had 2 dogs,one spring that did not develop hip sockets. I saw both dogs randomly,not by design.
Worst article to use as a case study.
Crap,most GR are lucky to walk at all.

If most goldens are lucky to walk at all and so prone to hip dysplasia as  you suggest, then what better breed is there to do a study on? or did you read the article before you clicked post reply?

The article:

"Neutering, and the age at which a dog is neutered, may affect the animal’s risk for developing certain cancers and joint diseases, according to a new study of golden retrievers by a team of researchers at the University of California, Davis.

The study, which examined the health records of 759 golden retrievers, found a surprising doubling of hip dysplasia among male dogs neutered before one year of age. This and other results were published Feb. 13 in the online scientific journal PLOS ONE.

“The study results indicate that dog owners and service-dog trainers should carefully consider when to have their male or female dogs neutered,” said lead investigator Benjamin Hart, a distinguished professor emeritus in the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine.

“It is important to remember, however, that because different dog breeds have different vulnerabilities to various diseases, the effects of early and late neutering also may vary from breed to breed,” he said.

While results of the new study are revealing, Hart said the relationship between neutering and disease-risk remains a complex issue. For example, the increased incidence of joint diseases among early-neutered dogs is likely a combination of the effect of neutering on the young dog’s growth plates as well as the increase in weight on the joints that is commonly seen in neutered dogs.

Dog owners in the United States are overwhelmingly choosing to neuter their dogs, in large part to prevent pet overpopulation or avoid unwanted behaviors. In the U.S., surgical neutering — known as spaying in females — is usually done when the dog is less than one year old.

In Europe, however, neutering is generally avoided by owners and trainers and not promoted by animal health authorities, Hart said.

During the past decade, some studies have indicated that neutering can have several adverse health effects for certain dog breeds. Those studies examined individual diseases using data drawn from one breed or pooled from several breeds.

Against that backdrop, Hart and colleagues launched their study, using a single hospital database. The study was designed to examine the effects of neutering on the risks of several diseases in the same breed, distinguishing between males and females and between early or late neutering and non-neutering.

The researchers chose to focus on the golden retriever because it is one of the most popular breeds in the U.S. and Europe and is vulnerable to various cancers and joint disorders. The breed also is favored for work as a service dog.

The research team reviewed the records of female and male golden retrievers, ranging in age from 1 to 8 years, that had been examined at UC Davis’ William R. Pritchard Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital for two joint disorders and three cancers: hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear, lymphosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma and mast cell tumor. The dogs were classified as intact (not neutered), neutered early (before 12 months age), or neutered late (at or after 12 months age).

Joint disorders and cancers are of particular interest because neutering removes the male dog’s testes and the female’s ovaries, interrupting production of certain hormones that play key roles in important body processes such as closure of bone growth plates, and regulation of the estrous cycle in female dogs.

The study revealed that, for all five diseases analyzed, the disease rates were significantly higher in both males and females that were neutered either early or late compared with intact (non-neutered) dogs.

Specifically, early neutering was associated with an increase in the occurrence of hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear and lymphosarcoma in males and of cranial cruciate ligament tear in females. Late neutering was associated with the subsequent occurrence of mast cell tumors and hemangiosarcoma in females.

In most areas, the findings of this study were consistent with earlier studies, suggesting similar increases in disease risks. The new study, however, was the first to specifically report an increased risk of late neutering for mast cell tumors and hemangiosarcoma.

Furthermore, the new study showed a surprising 100 percent increase, or doubling, of the incidence of hip dysplasia among early-neutered males. Earlier studies had reported a 17 percent increase among all neutered dogs compared to all non-neutered dogs, indicating the importance of the new study in making gender and age-of-neutering comparisons.

Other researchers on this UC Davis study were: Gretel Torres de la Riva, Thomas Farver and Lynette Hart, School of Veterinary Medicine; Anita Oberbauer, Department of Animal Science; Locksley Messam, Department of Public Health Sciences; and Neil Willits, Department of Statistics."

The more significant line from that article is as follows...

"“It is important to remember, however, that because different dog breeds have different vulnerabilities to various diseases, the effects of early and late neutering also may vary from breed to breed,”

I'm not even the veterinary pro in my house and I think I can safely say I've seen near every oddball genetically inherited issue that a lab can get just from going to dog parks over the years. I've also seen some highly athletic specimans that were about as rock solid health wise as you'll ever get.

It upsets some when I say it, but I think these studies often get thrown around by breeders (not all) in an effort to explain what they don't want to admit, that some lines in some breeds have real problems and the only way to solve them is through some very hard and honest breeding decisions.

[Happy Gilmore]

Let us be enlightened and take consideration to the laws of averages and the "norm".

Unless a unique type of rare cancer, most (lets assume med-large breed hunting dogs, GSP, Golden, Lab) most have an expected life span of 10-12 years. Cancer typically affects dogs in the 8-10 year old range.

How many more years do you think you get, on average by nuetering a dog? (examples I used above)

[Curly]

My lab was neutered very young (as soon as his balls dropped) by the advice of my vet.  This was around 20 years ago; I wonder what that vet's opinion is regarding age to neuter now? 

[Stilly bay]

One page articles and heresay is easier to adopt as the rule than anything else..

were not adopting any rules here happy. that will never happen on a online forum.

The relevance of the article is purely for this discussion, where it points out that in ONE study there was a decrease in cancer and joint problems within the test group. It is a bit of evidence thrown up to support the argument against early neutering . by no means did anyone suggest that BECAUSE OF this article every one should now wait to neuter. It is purely food for thought and intended to help people make an educated decision in regards to their own animals.

[Happy Gilmore]

One page articles and heresay is easier to adopt as the rule than anything else..

were not adopting any rules here happy. that will never happen on a online forum.

The relevance of the article is purely for this discussion, where it points out that in ONE study there was a decrease in cancer and joint problems within the test group. It is a bit of evidence thrown up to support the argument against early neutering . by no means did anyone suggest that BECAUSE OF this article every one should now wait to neuter. It is purely food for thought and intended to help people make an educated decision in regards to their own animals.

Just pointing out how much validity some folks will put into something they were told once or heard somewhere. You'd have to read lengthy studies and be in some sort of long term research facility NOT funded by Liberal colleges with money coming from guys who tell you to spay and nueter all animals every day on their gameshow in Hollywood.

[AspenBud]

Let's flip the conversation on its head.

The breeder I got one of my dog's from found that a pup in a different litter some years later had a heart murmur and that it was a genetically passed on thing. The issue was so severe that the dog would never be able to hunt and exercise would need to be very moderate and the odds were highly stacked against the dog getting much beyond a year. Up until the issue was found the dog was the pick of the litter.

She neutered the dog, so no one could ever try to breed it and pass on the defect, at six months and found a vet to adopt him.

The dog was still chugging along at age 2 last I heard.

I call that responsible breeding.

Incidentally, that same breeder is a vet at an animal shelter and I recently saw her post a rant about spaying and neutering because in two days time she had to put down three dogs for pyometra and a couple more still as a result of complications from mammary tumors. All preventable if the dogs had been spayed, especially before that first heat cycle.

Again, be practical, do what works for you, and research research research the breeds, breedings, health certs, and pedigrees you are interested in before buying. Those are ultimately much more important than holding off on spaying or neutering...in my opinion.

[Happy Gilmore]

If the lady was a smart Vet and responsible breeder she would have had the breeding pairs' hearts checked via echocardiogram before doing the breeding. It's a common condition to some breeds and the breeding pair should be checked. Likelyhood is that they weren't. Pick of the litter means nothing at all.

[Stilly bay]

Let's flip the conversation on its head.

The breeder I got one of my dog's from found that a pup in a different litter some years later had a heart murmur and that it was a genetically passed on thing. The issue was so severe that the dog would never be able to hunt and exercise would need to be very moderate and the odds were highly stacked against the dog getting much beyond a year. Up until the issue was found the dog was the pick of the litter.

She neutered the dog, so no one could ever try to breed it and pass on the defect, at six months and found a vet to adopt him.

The dog was still chugging along at age 2 last I heard.

I call that responsible breeding.

Incidentally, that same breeder is a vet at an animal shelter and I recently saw her post a rant about spaying and neutering because in two days time she had to put down three dogs for pyometra and a couple more still as a result of complications from mammary tumors. All preventable if the dogs had been spayed, especially before that first heat cycle.

Again, be practical, do what works for you, and research research research the breeds, breedings, health certs, and pedigrees you are interested in before buying. Those are ultimately much more important than holding off on spaying or neutering...in my opinion.

I think its safe to say at this point in the argument neutering early and spaying early are two completely different cans of worm.

but agreeably the worst thing you can do is ignorantly breed dogs together without proper testing, or even worse breed them despite their physical/genetic defects. thats why were in the mess we are today and thats why the label "Backyard breeder" is not something to be proud of.

[AspenBud]

If the lady was a smart Vet and responsible breeder she would have had the breeding pairs' hearts checked via echocardiogram before doing the breeding. It's a common condition to some breeds and the breeding pair should be checked. Likelyhood is that they weren't.

Nice try.

[AspenBud]

Let's flip the conversation on its head.

The breeder I got one of my dog's from found that a pup in a different litter some years later had a heart murmur and that it was a genetically passed on thing. The issue was so severe that the dog would never be able to hunt and exercise would need to be very moderate and the odds were highly stacked against the dog getting much beyond a year. Up until the issue was found the dog was the pick of the litter.

She neutered the dog, so no one could ever try to breed it and pass on the defect, at six months and found a vet to adopt him.

The dog was still chugging along at age 2 last I heard.

I call that responsible breeding.

Incidentally, that same breeder is a vet at an animal shelter and I recently saw her post a rant about spaying and neutering because in two days time she had to put down three dogs for pyometra and a couple more still as a result of complications from mammary tumors. All preventable if the dogs had been spayed, especially before that first heat cycle.

Again, be practical, do what works for you, and research research research the breeds, breedings, health certs, and pedigrees you are interested in before buying. Those are ultimately much more important than holding off on spaying or neutering...in my opinion.

I think its safe to say at this point in the argument neutering early and spaying early are two completely different cans of worm.

but agreeably the worst thing you can do is ignorantly breed dogs together without proper testing, or even worse breed them despite their physical/genetic defects. thats why were in the mess we are today and thats why the label "Backyard breeder" is not something to be proud of.

Agreed

[wildweeds]

I had the nuts knocked off of an 18 month old and gave him away on to a fella on this board the dog had been hunted 2 years.The dog was sired by a really big named multiple AF AA ch,and he had a genetic flaw.I had them knocked off so the pool would be as clean as it can be.

[Happy Gilmore]

If the lady was a smart Vet and responsible breeder she would have had the breeding pairs' hearts checked via echocardiogram before doing the breeding. It's a common condition to some breeds and the breeding pair should be checked. Likelyhood is that they weren't.

Nice try.

Obviously, if she produced a pup with a heart condition she didn't first have the parents checked to potentially eliminate either parent from the gene pool like Wildweeds suggested. If someone is cited as a professional and they themselves don't take proper steps to ensure good breedings, how good is the information you provide which came from that person?

Vets are taught how to repair sick animals. They do not take extensive courses on genetics and reproduction unless it is part of a specialty they are pursuing. I went to a animal eye clinic and they didn't know about PRA testing? I mean WTF? I offended the DVM because I told her I was shocked she was not up to date on the genetic testing available which can eliminate the vary diseases which she's getting paid to diagnose.

If you need some slice and dice or, kill some bad bug to keep your pet alive, vets are great. They aren't often knowledgable on many other issues because it doesn't serve a purpose to keep an animal alive. Long time breeders on the other hand, have the "battlefield" experience and knowledge of pedigree and pre-dispositions of traits and issues with bloodlines. No vet will be able to come up with anything close to real world knowledge of breedings and often some folks's pedigree knowledge.

Knowing how to treat disease and disorder is priority.

[Stilly bay]

If only people as much thought into the breeding of their own children as they did their animals. The world would undoubtedly be a better place with fewer genetic issues and diseases, instead we just crank out babies with little regard to the child's life and potential complications.... just saying.

[Southpole]

If only people as much thought into the breeding of their own children as they did their animals. The world would undoubtedly be a better place with fewer genetic issues and diseases, instead we just crank out babies with little regard to the child's life and potential complications.... just saying.

My thoughts exactly! Thanks a bunch mom and dad for the crappy thin hair and veiny white skin

[AspenBud]

If the lady was a smart Vet and responsible breeder she would have had the breeding pairs' hearts checked via echocardiogram before doing the breeding. It's a common condition to some breeds and the breeding pair should be checked. Likelyhood is that they weren't.

Nice try.

Obviously, if she produced a pup with a heart condition she didn't first have the parents checked to potentially eliminate either parent from the gene pool like Wildweeds suggested. If someone is cited as a professional and they themselves don't take proper steps to ensure good breedings, how good is the information you provide which came from that person?

Vets are taught how to repair sick animals. They do not take extensive courses on genetics and reproduction unless it is part of a specialty they are pursuing. I went to a animal eye clinic and they didn't know about PRA testing? I mean WTF? I offended the DVM because I told her I was shocked she was not up to date on the genetic testing available which can eliminate the vary diseases which she's getting paid to diagnose.

If you need some slice and dice or, kill some bad bug to keep your pet alive, vets are great. They aren't often knowledgable on many other issues because it doesn't serve a purpose to keep an animal alive. Long time breeders on the other hand, have the "battlefield" experience and knowledge of pedigree and pre-dispositions of traits and issues with bloodlines. No vet will be able to come up with anything close to real world knowledge of breedings and often some folks's pedigree knowledge.

Knowing how to treat disease and disorder is priority.

Well you're wrong on the first point and I'm sorry you've had a bad run with vets. But condemning the profession like that is like saying you're a poor breeder because of all of the puppy mills out there or because someone got a dud from a breeder (it happens) or because you breed AKC dogs (a group that many FDSB folks would say has done more to wreck working breeds than improve them) you breed junk dogs and don't know what you are doing. None of those are fair characterizations about you I suspect and your comments about the veterinary world are not either.

A number of breeders out there are, in fact, veterinarians and some even agree with you on spaying and neutering so I would suggest you stop while you are ahead. 

[Happy Gilmore]

I have not had any bad runs with vets. As I said, there are just as many studies supporting one side as the other. Just because someone is a vet surely doesn't make them a more competent or, well informed breeder than one who isn't.

Good luck getting me to step out of a discussion..lol..

[WRL]

If the lady was a smart Vet and responsible breeder she would have had the breeding pairs' hearts checked via echocardiogram before doing the breeding. It's a common condition to some breeds and the breeding pair should be checked. Likelyhood is that they weren't. Pick of the litter means nothing at all.

The cancers mentioned in the studies are particularly fast growing and in GOLDENS, they can and do strike from the 4 to 6 years of age category.

Alos, folks......"early neutering" for that study is any time before 12 months of age.

WRL