Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting

[huntnphool]

The USFWS, IDFG, MT, WY, WA, OR, CO, ND,  and several other states all have one thing in common, the USFWS's wolf push. Wyoming legistlators stood up for the people of Wyoming, and now that state hunts wolves as a predator in parts of the state.

Huntnphool among others say, prove the USFWS and WDFW have released wolves in WA! I know for a fact they have, and so do several others.

But go beyond all of the eye witnesses of wolf releases by either the USFWS or WDFW. After 70 years, all of a sudden WA and OR have their first wolf pack confirmed the very same day. And after 70 years, say from 2008 up till now>five years later WA is full of wolves. My guess is there aren't that many fools left when it comes to how wolves ended up in WA or OR.   

Prove it they say, where's the pictures? How long will it take to prove pictures really arn't necessary? WDFW say they have never released wolves in WA, they refuse to confirm wolf killed livestock, they refuse to confirm wolf packs, they refuse to confirm the decimation of game herds, basically refuse to acknowledge the fact that wolves are having an impact at all.

If the USFWS and WDFW lies to everyone about wolves and where they came from, the impact they are having on game herds and livestock, how many fools still believe they want your advise? How many people believe WDFW didn't know what the wolves would do to WA when they started releasing them?

How many people now believe there will ever be any real management of wolves by WDFW?

Forget about wolves, how many counties have a major bear or cougar problem?

How many fools are there in WA?

Nobody is denying there are wolves here and you still have not proven a thing.

[Special T]

Wolf Bait brings up a great point, on that i have thought about  a lot. What facts equal proof?

We are now living in a time where people have seen too many episodes of Law and Order, C.S.I. etc. Of course video is proof that is nearly impossible to refute. HOW have most legal cases been solves and prosecuted? The application of the tired and true Motive , Opportunity, Evidence. Video is just another form of evidence. Many court cases have been proven with scant evidence but LOTS of Motive and Opportunity.

The basic use of logic, powers of deduction, observation, and reason seem to escape most people today.

Proof by its self does NOTHING to change our situation. Our situation has to be changed politically, from pressure, or by legal recourse of lawsuit.  We have few friends that want to stick their neck out on this issue, and many political enemies who embrace wolves. Short of Video that leaves a lawsuit. Lawsuits are expensive and uncertain, especially against an opponent with unlimited funds. Once a Suit is filed and played out, you only get ONE shot at proving your case. For MANY reasons you have to get it just right.

I don't have any info in depth on this issue like wolfbait. I can tell you with what has been posted here and elsewhere it seems likely that either the WDFW or USFS has transplanted wolves.

If Video is the only kind of proof you will accept, be thankful that our legal system does not make it a prerequisite. There would be a LOT of bad people running around if it was.

[bearpaw]

You bring up a good point ST, testimony from eye witnesses is usually considered evidence in a court of law. 

[Simcoe hunter]

Where are they gonna find some "experts"?  From what I've seen of the management of wolves in the other states, I see a serious shortage of "experts"

Here is the logic of one of Washington's appointed experts when it comes to wolves:

 "In order to remain successful, hunters will have to adapt, which in turn will make them better hunters".

Jay Kehne.  August 2011

http://www.conservationnw.org/news/pressroom/press-clips/theres-more-to-the-wolf-story

Yeah.  That means adapt to our will, give up hunting and become a granola munching, tree hugging wolf lover.  Oh yeah, and if you want a steak go to Walmart.  This doesn't bode well for hunters.  I remember seeing demographics put out by the WDFW years ago describing how well they managed one of the smallest states versus larger populations, blah, blah, blah...  They were patting themselves on the back for providing such good opportunities for hunters.

So what has changed?  Is it really pressure from the Feds, or big money from wolf lovers?

[ribka]

there has been a cultural And political shift in our country. started in 1968 IMHO

Our new progressive culture intends to implement  a many pronged approach to limit gun ownership and to end hunting on public lands. This is being pushed at the Fed level. No doubt about that.

Where are they gonna find some "experts"?  From what I've seen of the management of wolves in the other states, I see a serious shortage of "experts"

Here is the logic of one of Washington's appointed experts when it comes to wolves:

 "In order to remain successful, hunters will have to adapt, which in turn will make them better hunters".

Jay Kehne.  August 2011

http://www.conservationnw.org/news/pressroom/press-clips/theres-more-to-the-wolf-story

Yeah.  That means adapt to our will, give up hunting and become a granola munching, tree hugging wolf lover.  Oh yeah, and if you want a steak go to Walmart.  This doesn't bode well for hunters.  I remember seeing demographics put out by the WDFW years ago describing how well they managed one of the smallest states versus larger populations, blah, blah, blah...  They were patting themselves on the back for providing such good opportunities for hunters.

So what has changed?  Is it really pressure from the Feds, or big money from wolf lovers?

[wolfbait]

WDF& Wolves, Same BS just a Different State!
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Fishing In The Dark Is The Best Way To Describe How MT FWP Is Attempting To Control Wolves

And, so far, that approach has been an absolute horrible failure.  What FWP has managed to accomplish through extremely inadequate management of wolves as a "big game animal" has been to play an instrumental role in the destruction of big game herds in at least 40-percent of the state - a resource that took 75 or more years to build - and which has now been decimated by wolves.  FWP's smoke and mirrors has finally caught up with them, and those sportsmen and wildlife lovers who have witnessed the carnage of elk, moose, deer and other big game species throughout the western half of Montana now hold extremely low regard for the agency they entrusted to protect and propagate the region's once abundant wildlife.

Time has run out for FWP to do the right thing.  As we head into fall and the realization that (despite the lies and deceit spread by FWP propaganda whores) there's no game to be hunted sets in, the anger of those who have financially supported FWP is sure to flare.

The agency continues to ignore the real science of wolf management/wolf control - throwing a handful of amateur wolf "specialists" into the field to make up their own brand of "pseudo wolf science"...based on nothing more than false numbers and their own lack of wolf knowledge.  One thing is for certain, these "specialists" sure don't let the established "wolf science" of the past 150 years from around the world cloud their goal to write their own chapter in the annals of wildlife management.  If they succeed, it could be the final chapter.

The attached takes a look at the reality of controlling wolves.

Editorial News/Press Release

July 15, 2013

Many More Wolves Need Eliminated To Save Elk Herds

In early June, the owners of a Bitterroot Valley hay farm, near Stevensville, MT, were shocked to find the tracks of four wolves crossing a freshly plowed and worked field. It was the first such wolf sign found in their relatively densely populated rural neighborhood, and what bothered the small acreage farmers most was that the tracks were headed directly toward several other small farms with livestock. From just about anywhere the tracks could be seen in the fine dirt, at least four or five nearby homes or barns could also be seen across open fields or through open stands of timber.

The terrain and habitat of the area is far from being what is considered typical wolf country. Or, at least, what was once considered wolf country. The wolves are no longer keeping to the mountain ridges that border both sides of the Bitterroot Valley. They're now down in the valley, and it has been hunger that's driven them to hunt among the valley dwelling human inhabitants of Western Montana.

There's not much left to be hunted in the mountainous country up and down most all of the western one-third of the state - either for wolves or for human big game hunters. Once bountiful elk herds are now barely 20-percent of what they were 15 years ago. Back then, most local residents would catch sight of moose several times a year. Now, moose are merely a memory. Outside of the human inhabited valleys, deer populations have plummeted sharply as well, and there is growing evidence that wolves and other apex predators are now making a serious negative impact on bighorn sheep and mountain goat numbers as well - especially during winter when these high alpine dwellers move to lower elevations to escape deep snows.

What big game there is left in Western Montana is now mostly found in the valleys, close to human inhabitants - where the remaining elk and deer seem to sense some safety and protection from aggressive wolf packs. Elk which once came down out of the high country when late fall snows began to blanket the ground, then returned the following spring, are now staying year-round in the valleys- and they're staying out of the mountains. Following them are now the wolves.

Healthy adult whitetails are simply too fast and too agile for wolves to depend on for a constant food source. Elk on the other hand are slower, and less likely to dart through thick timber at full speed. Three or four wolves can more quickly wear down a lone elk, especially a pregnant cow in the dead of winter - and that's why they have so negatively impacted elk populations. However, without elk, the wild carnivores will turn to whatever else is available - wild or domestic. The four wolves hunting the tilled hay field near Stevensville were most likely hunting for newborn whitetail fawns or calf elk. The predators are particularly hard on the newborn of the year, in many areas leaving a less than adequate 6- to 8-percent calf elk recruitment. Just for an elk herd to exist, it takes close to a 20-percent calf recruitment - and around a 30-percent calf recruitment to justify even limited elk hunting opportunities for human hunters.

The manner in which the State of Montana continues to *censored*foot around with an ever worsening major predator problem baffles the sportsmen and rural residents of the state. One thing that's now clearly evident is that wolves cannot be controlled through sport hunting - requiring hunters to purchase a wolf hunting license and restricting those hunters to "sporting" methods of take. The transplanted Canadian wolves now roaming the Northern U.S. Rockies are not native to the region, they are not "big game" the same as elk or deer, and anyone in pursuit of wolves with the intent of controlling their numbers cannot be subjected to "fair chase" restrictions. Wolves are destructive predators, and must be controlled as such. Montana hunters impacted by the devastating loss of wildlife to wolves feel that the state's wildlife agency needs to abandon all efforts to manage wolves as another big game animal, and allow hunters to take wolves whenever the opportunity presents itself - no license, no season, no limit, no "sporting" methods of take restrictions - until the wolf population has been adequately reduced.

Currently, Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks has proposed some changes for the 2013 Wolf Season that will make it the most liberal season to date. This year, wolf hunters/trappers would be allowed to buy up to five licenses, the firearm wolf season would begin statewide on September 15, and the season would run until the end of March. Just days before the end of the 2012 wolf season, legislation was enacted to legalize electronic game callers for hunting wolves, but the 2013 season will be the first to determine just how effective such callers are for taking such an intelligent and secretive predator. Unfortunately, the writing is already on the wall, and concerned Montana residents are openly speaking out, condemning even these changes as not going far enough.

During the wolf delisting hearings of 2008, Dr. L. David Mech, considered by many as the leading wolf scientist in the world, was deposed as an expert witness in support of halting the growth of the wolf population in Montana, Idaho and Wyoming. In his declaration, he pointed out that wolves could not be managed the same as game like elk, moose and deer. He also outlined the degree that wolf populations had to be culled. Just to stop the rate of wolf population growth, and to stop the growing depredation caused by the wolves, required eliminating basically half of the existing number of wolves. However, even that degree of harvest would not allow big game numbers to rebound. A 50-percent elimination of the existing wolf population would only stop the growth rate of game and livestock depredation. According to Mech, it would take the elimination of 70-percent, or more, of existing wolf numbers, with the wolf population held at that level for at least five years, before wildlife populations would begin to rebound.

At present, that cannot be accomplished, mainly because MT FWP has absolutely no idea how many wolves are in the state. They continue to throw out artificially low wolf population estimates, with the real number of wolves in Montana likely two or three times greater.

The state's 2012 wolf season saw hunters and trappers purchase 18,642 licenses for harvesting "a wolf". The season opened with the start of the archery big game season on September 1, but for rifle hunters the only early season wolf hunting allowed was in several backcountry hunting units, which opened September 15. For all other rifle hunters, the season opened with the start of the general big game season on October 20. The first ever wolf trapping season opened December 15 - and that season, along with the firearm hunting season, closed on February 28. During the 181 days of the season, just 225 wolves were taken by hunters and trappers for a not so whopping success rate of only about 1.2 percent.

Still, MT FWP Director Jeff Hagener commented, "We're generally pleased with these results. The overall harvest of 225 wolves this season is higher than last year and reflects the more liberal harvest opportunities that were added for 2012. The effectiveness of hunters and now trappers together continues to grow."

Although the agency has done its best to make the season sound like a tremendous success, in reality when just 1.2 hunters or trappers per 100 fill a wolf tag, FWP's so-called wolf management through sport hunting has been a miserable failure. As you read this, there are now more wolves in the state than before the start of the 2012 season - and MT FWP is further in the dark when it comes to truly knowing how many wolves are in Montana.

At one 2012 MT FWP meeting in Missoula to discuss overall predator impact, and to allow sportsmen, ranchers and rural residents to comment on what's being done or not done to control major predator numbers, one of those commenting pointed out that the problem is how few hunters are actually buying a wolf tag. One suggestion from the 300 or so who attended the meeting was that any big game hunter with a valid Montana big game tag in his or her pocket should be allowed to use that tag to take a wolf. Instead of fewer than 20,000 "wolf hunters" out there during the five-week general big game season, there could potentially be two...three...or four times as many hunters who would take a wolf if there was suddenly the opportunity to take a shot.

With each season that Montana Governor Steve Bullock allows FWP to drag its feet on taking actions that would bring down the wolf population in the state, the greater the loss of big game resources. The herds continue to get smaller - and older. Many who have cherished the bounty and variety of big game in Western Montana their entire lives now fear that unless drastic measures are taken to bring wolf populations down as dramatically as outlined by Dr. L. David Mech back in 2008, many once great herds could be lost forever. More than ever, the talk among sportsmen is that FWP cannot be trusted to come up with a viable solution, and that it's now time to take the matter into their own hands and begin killing every wolf they see. Some have already started their own kind of vigilante wolf control. Likewise, as grizzly numbers continue to increase, also taking more of a bite out of big game populations, more and more of the big bears are also ending up in the crosshairs - and left to rot.

Does that sound like poor ethics to you?

Welcome to the new normal. When a sportsman funded wildlife agency like MT FWP begins to favor growing numbers of predators and shows a complete disregard for properly managing the elk, moose, deer, pronghorn, and other edible big game that Montana sportsmen have counted on to help feed their families for decades, it is then the agency that has stepped across the ethics line. Dark storm clouds are brewing on the horizon and that rumble in the distance may not be thunder. More than likely, it's some extremely disgruntled residents of Big Sky Country gearing up for war. - Toby Bridges, LOBO WATCH

　

For More About LOBO WATCH Go To: www.lobowatch.com

[buckfvr]

It is going to take unthinkable concerted action  from many organized people to change the manner in which this state alone, continues to deceive the public.  The feds mission is being delivered at the state level.

My own opinion is not a single employee of WDFW has a conscience, and its been evident at all their meetings. Blatantly disconnected, all of them.  Trust non of them. 

[bearpaw]

Message from an Idaho resident to the ID F&G Commission, Governor, Legislators:

Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2013 12:49 PM
To: Jim and Barbara Hagedorn
Subject: Fw: How can it get any worse?

Please take a look at the PDF file and see how bad the shape of the Idaho State wildlife economy is.
 
Resident elk tag sales for the zones that have quotas, remember these zones: the Lolo, Selway, Middlefork, Dworshak, Elk City, Diamond Creek, Sawtooth, Salmon, Smokey Mountain and Bear River, were the prime and the most sought after tags in Idaho.  Before Idaho Fish and Game lost their way, and wolves, these tags were sold out in the first month and they was a waiting list.
 
NOW !!!!!!!, we have the Resident Zone tag quota of 12,421.  As of July 12 the department has only sold 1,779 leaving a balance of unsold tags of 10,642.  Remember when these tags sold out within the first 30 days?    SHAME, SHAME, SHAME.
 
Now let's switch to Non-Resident tag sales, as of July 12,  Deer, regular/whitetail quota 12,015, sold 1,230, balance of unsold tags 10,785.  Yes, it gets worse:  Elk,  Non-Resident State tag quota 10,415, tags sold 1,697, balance of unsold tags,  8,718.  Now here is the kicker, Zone elk tags A and B tag quota 3,996, sold 978, This leaves 3,020 tags unsold.  This amounts to nothing but a sin, not for non-residents but for the IDFG  department. 
 
For the last 30 years a number of these IDFG employees have been steering the boat, how did they let it get so far off course?  Why did they destroy a resource like our wildlife?  30 years ago we had men and women come from the world over, to spend time in the Idaho outdoors.  Elk, deer, pheasants, bear and cougar and other wildlife were plentiful, along with the wonders of viewing nature in the outdoors.
 
In the last 30 years the IDFG Department has lost its direction.  Right now we need new leadership in the worst way to get us back on course, we need someone in leadership to get the boat upright again.  The leadership of the department has let things get so bad that sportsmen and sportswomen, who have been the sole supporter of the department, will not fund it.  Now the department is going begging to the general tax payers for money.  Why give them general tax money when the department has been unable to manage the 93 million plus they get now.
 
Please IDFG Commissioners, our Idaho State Governor, and our legislators, turn this boat around before it is to late to save the sinking boat.
 
Jim Hagedorn



attachment added

[Northway]

A question for those who have followed the evolution of the wolf issue in the NRM:

Are you more interested in what bios/wildlife managers from Idaho or Montana have to say about predation issues now that you were five years ago?

[Special T]

I'm NOT interested in what they say about he North Rocky Mountians... WHY? Because the Facts speak for themselves... Areas that once held HUGE ammounts of elk, now hold a fraction. YNP went from 18k elk to...3k???
Wolves were in the Cascades and NRM in small numbers BEFORE the reintroduction experiment in YNP 1992... They managed some kind of balence up until those wolves spread.
 ID introduced wolves just like the YNP same kind same time frame. WHY would i listen to those Bios that NEED to CYA? MT and ID have it in thier best intrest to shade the numbers. Why? They NEED out of state hunters! Yet they slit thier own throat.

An unfortanate fact is that many NON hunter have filled positions in wildlife depts in the NW area. Once upon a time the regional bio or elk specialist knew a BUNCH BECAUSE he hunted. I think you see less of that now days.

[Alchase]

The USFWS, IDFG, MT, WY, WA, OR, CO, ND,  and several other states all have one thing in common, the USFWS's wolf push. Wyoming legistlators stood up for the people of Wyoming, and now that state hunts wolves as a predator in parts of the state.

Huntnphool among others say, prove the USFWS and WDFW have released wolves in WA! I know for a fact they have, and so do several others.

But go beyond all of the eye witnesses of wolf releases by either the USFWS or WDFW. After 70 years, all of a sudden WA and OR have their first wolf pack confirmed the very same day. And after 70 years, say from 2008 up till now>five years later WA is full of wolves. My guess is there aren't that many fools left when it comes to how wolves ended up in WA or OR.   

Prove it they say, where's the pictures? How long will it take to prove pictures really arn't necessary? WDFW say they have never released wolves in WA, they refuse to confirm wolf killed livestock, they refuse to confirm wolf packs, they refuse to confirm the decimation of game herds, basically refuse to acknowledge the fact that wolves are having an impact at all.

If the USFWS and WDFW lies to everyone about wolves and where they came from, the impact they are having on game herds and livestock, how many fools still believe they want your advise? How many people believe WDFW didn't know what the wolves would do to WA when they started releasing them?

How many people now believe there will ever be any real management of wolves by WDFW?

Forget about wolves, how many counties have a major bear or cougar problem?

How many fools are there in WA?

Nobody is denying there are wolves here and you still have not proven a thing.

Wolfbait, I admire how much work you and others have put it to the wolf issue to keep us informed, but you have been asked directly to show the proof you have many, many times over the last few years, I have yet to see any proof indicating wolves have been reintroduced in Washington from you or any other source that says they were.

Would I be surprised if they were, No!

Lets face it, if any of us actually had proof of reintroduction, someone at the WDFW or whomever was involved, would be going to jail.



So again Post it if you got it.

[huntnphool]

The USFWS, IDFG, MT, WY, WA, OR, CO, ND,  and several other states all have one thing in common, the USFWS's wolf push. Wyoming legistlators stood up for the people of Wyoming, and now that state hunts wolves as a predator in parts of the state.

Huntnphool among others say, prove the USFWS and WDFW have released wolves in WA! I know for a fact they have, and so do several others.

But go beyond all of the eye witnesses of wolf releases by either the USFWS or WDFW. After 70 years, all of a sudden WA and OR have their first wolf pack confirmed the very same day. And after 70 years, say from 2008 up till now>five years later WA is full of wolves. My guess is there aren't that many fools left when it comes to how wolves ended up in WA or OR.   

Prove it they say, where's the pictures? How long will it take to prove pictures really arn't necessary? WDFW say they have never released wolves in WA, they refuse to confirm wolf killed livestock, they refuse to confirm wolf packs, they refuse to confirm the decimation of game herds, basically refuse to acknowledge the fact that wolves are having an impact at all.

If the USFWS and WDFW lies to everyone about wolves and where they came from, the impact they are having on game herds and livestock, how many fools still believe they want your advise? How many people believe WDFW didn't know what the wolves would do to WA when they started releasing them?

How many people now believe there will ever be any real management of wolves by WDFW?

Forget about wolves, how many counties have a major bear or cougar problem?

How many fools are there in WA?

Nobody is denying there are wolves here and you still have not proven a thing.

Wolfbait, I admire how much work you and others have put it to the wolf issue to keep us informed, but you have been asked directly to show the proof you have many, many times over the last few years, I have yet to see any proof indicating wolves have been reintroduced in Washington from you or any other source that says they were.

Would I be surprised if they were, No!

Lets face it, if any of us actually had proof of reintroduction, someone at the WDFW or whomever was involved, would be going to jail.



So again Post it if you got it.

EXACTLY!!!!

[denali]

watching it now ... we need to send in some good questions -  july18event@dfw.wa.gov

[CedarPants]

Did he just say they have 117 documented packs in Idaho? (Packs, not breeding pairs)

[ghosthunter]

1.2 million to manage wolves.