4-point rule 117/121

[Jonathan_S]

Im all for the 4pt or better rule! Wish they would start doing this to some of the blacktail units!

4?  I could see 3 pt min for blacktail.  I hunted the 650 units for a lot of years and most of the good bucks I have seen were 3 pt

I've got a big heavy 2x3 blacktail in 2001 that I would have cried over in a 4 pt minimum hunt.

[Curly]

The problem with a 3 point min rule for blacktails is that eyeguards are counted for the legal definition..........you'd end up killing 2 points with eye-guards.  But, that might still be better than letting the spikes and little 2 points get wacked like it is now.       (But I suppose that's another topic than whiteys in 117/121..........)

[Jonathan_S]

The problem with a 3 point min rule for blacktails is that eyeguards are counted for the legal definition..........you'd end up killing 2 points with eye-guards.  But, that might still be better than letting the spikes and little 2 points get wacked like it is now.       (But I suppose that's another topic than whiteys in 117/121..........)

That was something I was going to bring up in my other post.  It seems like there are far fewer blacktails with browtines than whitetails.  So yeah there'd be some little racks still harvested but the same can be said for any point rule.

Anyway, back on topic.  I am a big fan of the 4 point minimum for ALL user groups, particularly 117 and 121

[popeshawnpaul]

The population has "rebounded".  It's time to lift it next year.

Cannot disagree more.  Not sure why taking away the fix would be a good thing.

It was only a short term 3 year fix to alter the population dynamics such that there were more deer in general in the area due to the "decline" cited by WDFW in the area due to difficult winters and factors they were unaware of.  If they were going to do it, it was predicated that it would be lifted after 3 years when all the benefits of it had been realized.  It prompted the radio collar study in the area to help determine fawn survival in the area and we just had a full report on it from the bio a few weeks ago at the GMAC.  After a few years, studies and science tells us that the short term benefits are nullified.  Every WDFW biologist, except one, did not want the 4 point rule in this area.  It never received approval from the GMAC either.  One commissioner was able to push it through with support from outfitter(s) that it would create a "trophy" area or more big bucks. 

It does not create more big bucks despite how many more you deer you are seeing in your "honey hole".  Even if it did, are we now managing just for big bucks?  There is nothing wrong with letting the 90% of the public that wants to shoot a meat buck do so.  Nearly the rest of the state already has 3 point white-tailed restrictions and it doesn't help with more trophy bucks in that area.  There are tons of studies on the issue from other states so do some research on the issues.  Our bio's aren't stupid, there is a reason most didn't want this.  There are many more issues on this population than buck ratios and dynamics.  Winters, wolves, etc...

[Jonathan_S]

Thanks for the write-up Shawn and I do understand why it is bothersome to a lot of people.  I don't mean to scoff at people who disagree with me.

Do you think it is hurting herd management to continue with the 4 pt minimum?  If so, do you think lifting it and returning it to ANY BUCK would be a better management strategy?

[dscubame]

The population has "rebounded".  It's time to lift it next year.

Cannot disagree more.  Not sure why taking away the fix would be a good thing.

It was only a short term 3 year fix to alter the population dynamics such that there were more deer in general in the area due to the "decline" cited by WDFW in the area due to difficult winters and factors they were unaware of.  If they were going to do it, it was predicated that it would be lifted after 3 years when all the benefits of it had been realized.  It prompted the radio collar study in the area to help determine fawn survival in the area and we just had a full report on it from the bio a few weeks ago at the GMAC.  After a few years, studies and science tells us that the short term benefits are nullified.  Every WDFW biologist, except one, did not want the 4 point rule in this area.  It never received approval from the GMAC either.  One commissioner was able to push it through with support from outfitter(s) that it would create a "trophy" area or more big bucks. 

It does not create more big bucks despite how many more you deer you are seeing in your "honey hole".  Even if it did, are we now managing just for big bucks?  There is nothing wrong with letting the 90% of the public that wants to shoot a meat buck do so.  Nearly the rest of the state already has 3 point whitetails restrictions and it doesn't help with more trophy bucks in that area.  There are tons of studies on the issue from other states so do some research on the issues.  Our bio's are not stupid, there is a reason most didn't want this.  There are many more issues on this population than buck ratios and dynamics.  Winters, wolves, etc...

Again and with due respect I cannot disagree more with your added statements.  I know for a fact that the commissioners were in full support and I know for a fact they wanted to pass this the year prior to them doing so however at the prior years meeting when it was on the agenda for that meeting there was not quorum.  There was even talk among the commissioners to hold a special meeting to pass the 4 point however it was later decided simply to wait until the next season.

3 year plan talk, well maybe but if so that would be not anything but conversation and definitely not part of the minutes with any teeth to it.

Managing for large bucks was none of the conversation I have had with any commissioner, it was always a deer population conversation.  Outfitters pressing a commissioner to pass this is absurd.  It took the majority and it was no less than a 2 year internal dissuasion among  the commissioners, especially since they ended up passing it a year later than they intended.

It definitely does create bigger bucks and that is simply a fact.  I get it you may have an agenda and your strong belief's are from your education and experience.  If we were talking Mule deer I may tend to agree with you more.

Make it buck only I am fine with that too however I will say my very polite reply and contribution to this thread when i referred to my honey hole is how I feel.  Why get all in a tizzy over that, it's simply how I feel.

I can agree to disagree with the best of them pope I simply feel you have much bias and a bit misinformed.  cheers however.

[grundy53]

The population has "rebounded".  It's time to lift it next year.

Cannot disagree more.  Not sure why taking away the fix would be a good thing.

sent from my typewriter

[buckfvr]

I was in attendance when they said implement for 4 years, then evaluate. 

Living here and witnessing dynamics of the local whitetail herds,  for me its about many things.  Our deer numbers still dont appear to have fully rebounded from the back to back severe winters of 6 years ago.   This rule has allowed more deer to live a bit longer, and what comes with that is an extra season or two of antler developement.  WIth the last couple relatively mild winters, and great spring browse, absolutely, we have more mature bucks with guess what.....more horn !!!!

I will point out, if many of you  knew how wdfw counts deer, you'd scoff at the idea this hasnt helped.......

Of all the guys around here I hunt with and or share information with, the concensus is in overwhelmng support of this rule.

I suggest popes post is skewed and does not represent actual facts or results. 

Where wdfw is concerned, I dont believe anything I read or hear, and only half of what I see.  As with the wolves, wanna know whats going on in these hills ???ask one of the many who live here, and truley care about ALL wildlife.

[92xj]

I was in attendance when they said implement for 4 years, then evaluate. 

Living here and witnessing dynamics of the local whitetail herds,  for me its about many things.  Our deer numbers still dont appear to have fully rebounded from the back to back severe winters of 6 years ago.   This rule has allowed more deer to live a bit longer, and what comes with that is an extra season or two of antler developement.  WIth the last couple relatively mild winters, and great spring browse, absolutely, we have more mature bucks with guess what.....more horn !!!!

I will point out, if many of you  knew how wdfw counts deer, you'd scoff at the idea this hasnt helped.......

Of all the guys around here I hunt with and or share information with, the concensus is in overwhelmng support of this rule.

I suggest popes post is skewed and does not represent actual facts or results. 

Where wdfw is concerned, I dont believe anything I read or hear, and only half of what I see.  As with the wolves, wanna know whats going on in these hills ???ask one of the many who live here, and truley care about ALL wildlife.

 

[bearpaw]

It was supposed to be for 5 years to give it a proper trial. Numbers are still not where they should be but we are gaining, I too am seeing more mature bucks. This rule basically protects most of our first year bucks, by year 5 we should know more. We have so many predators that the herd is recovering pretty slowly.

[bowhunterforever]

Love this rule. Seeing a lot more 4 point or better bucks and deer numbers are rebounding back to normal

[DBHAWTHORNE]

Considering most whitetails unless they still have spots or milk on their lips are 4 points or better(WDFW rules), I was surprised what the big deal was.   Glad they put it into effect.    The three point or better rules for muledeer saved the Methow herd.

Exactly... I see far more 4 pts than 3 pts or less....even the first year.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

The population has "rebounded".  It's time to lift it next year.

Cannot disagree more.  Not sure why taking away the fix would be a good thing.

It was only a short term 3 year fix to alter the population dynamics such that there were more deer in general in the area due to the "decline" cited by WDFW in the area due to difficult winters and factors they were unaware of.  If they were going to do it, it was predicated that it would be lifted after 3 years when all the benefits of it had been realized.  It prompted the radio collar study in the area to help determine fawn survival in the area and we just had a full report on it from the bio a few weeks ago at the GMAC.  After a few years, studies and science tells us that the short term benefits are nullified.  Every WDFW biologist, except one, did not want the 4 point rule in this area.  It never received approval from the GMAC either.  One commissioner was able to push it through with support from outfitter(s) that it would create a "trophy" area or more big bucks. 

It does not create more big bucks despite how many more you deer you are seeing in your "honey hole".  Even if it did, are we now managing just for big bucks?  There is nothing wrong with letting the 90% of the public that wants to shoot a meat buck do so.  Nearly the rest of the state already has 3 point white-tailed restrictions and it doesn't help with more trophy bucks in that area.  There are tons of studies on the issue from other states so do some research on the issues.  Our bio's are stupid, there is a reason most didn't want this.  There are many more issues on this population than buck ratios and dynamics.  Winters, wolves, etc...

Are these biologist whitetail specialists? I'd like to hear why they go against what is considered a good practice in whitetail QDM.

 I have read the studies from the other states.. there is plenty of scientific studies and evidence to disprove the few naysayers...the "issues"...aren't quite what some want to make them.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

It was supposed to be for 5 years to give it a proper trial. Numbers are still not where they should be but we are gaining, I too am seeing more mature bucks. This rule basically protects most of our first year bucks, by year 5 we should know more. We have so many predators that the herd is recovering pretty slowly.

 

Every year I see more bears and cats on my cameras and while I haven't seen wolves in most of the areas I hunt (just one) I have heard them and found their scat in all of the areas I hunt.

[SkookumHntr]

Im all for the 4pt or better rule! Wish they would start doing this to some of the blacktail units!

4?  I could see 3 pt min for blacktail.  I hunted the 650 units for a lot of years and most of the good bucks I have seen were 3 pt

I've got a big heavy 2x3 blacktail in 2001 that I would have cried over in a 4 pt minimum hunt.

Well I was meaning antler restriction in general! Like the Mule Deer units, 3pt min!