4-point rule 117/121

[huntnnw]

problem with mule deer being 4pt min is alot of bucks will never get 4pts..lotta 2 and 3pt bucks their wholelife. One thing I dont agree with on Mule deer 3pt min is the giant forks running around breeeding and hunters cant touch them

[bullseeker]

I have a ? Why do bow hunters get a 5 day period in late season to shoot a Doe? It s at the end after they have been bread? Why allow this?

[muleyguy]

all the 4pt better rule does is increase the average harvested age class by 1 yr..........that is it......ALL the data on whitetail APR's shows that these rules are effective for increasing the average age class of harvested buck by one yr, but VERY little, if any, recruitment into older age classes results from it.  The reason these rules are so "popular" is that it creates a stockpile of 2.5 yr old bucks in the population and the ave age of harvest goes from 1.5 yr old bucks to 2.5 yr old bucks;  1 yr old bucks have slightly larger antlers, and so people "think" there is something magical going on.

what you have to understand is that there is a "cost" to all of this;  I have ranted on here about these rules, and if you go back I made a prediction a couple of years ago, I predicted that you would see a very large increase in harvest of 4 and 5 pt bucks;  the data bears this out;

The cost to these rules is it puts tremendous pressure on the older age classes, while protecting the younger age class.

Since 2010 when the rule was implemented, the number of 4 and 5 pt bucks harvested in unit 117 has gone up 44%;  in unit 121 it has gone up 56%;

And, obviously, the number of bucks harvested smaller then 4 pts has gone to virtually zero;

What do you think is happening here???  what do you think a post harvest age class survey looks like know??

Let me clue you in............you have created a huge bubble of juvenile bucks with very poor antler genetics who are doing the bulk of the breeding.......the reason is, this class of bucks is "protected", whereas the older age classes is not protected.

The increase in harvest from 2011 to 2012 in the 4/5pt was huge..........next year it will be the same thing and will only get worse as more people come back to the units.  One of the first casualties of this rule will be the loss or dramatic shortening of the rifle general rut season;  if this rule is not dropped, that will happen in a couple of more years.

This is the unfortunate legacy of APR's in WA........ever shortening season structures...........more people, jammed into a smaller hunting season, while its 90 degrees on October 9th;  thats a real treat........

In 2012 in unit 121, there was 20,000 hunter days;  in 2009, the year before the rule was implemented there was over 31,000 hunter days;

1/3 less hunter days...........56% increase in harvest of 4/5pt's.................sorry, but these units cannot sustain that kind of pressure on the older age classes when the hunter days goes back to historical norms.

Trust me, there isn't some "magical" new population of 4 and 5 pt bucks;  the rule change just took essentially the same number of bucks in the population, and reshuffled the avg harvest age class by 1 yr; 

and, if anybody thinks this rule will be rescinded, ever, is extremely naive.......the reason is very simple and is mathmatically based..........the very first year that you implement an APR, you "save" a bunch of yearling class bucks and create a bubble of them in the population.

what do you think happens when you unwind the APR and let people shoot any buck?  its a complete wipeout.............huge increase in harvest; 

They will never get rid of it;

I find it interesting how every Western state has gotten rid of APR's for both Mule deer and whitetails and have essentially taken that science and deemed it junk; 

But, no, we have mysteriously stumbled upon the magical herd management technique of APR's for both mule deer and whitetails here in WA??  When Idaho, Montana, Colorado, Wyoming, Oregon, etc have relegated these APR's to the trash heap of failed deer management.

And, no, our whitetail herds are not he same as Eastern US herds where they have implemented APR's;  those herds are highly productive, very low buck to doe herds;

the reason APR's were implemented there was to incentivize hunters to shoot does........that is completely different then what we need; 

If you want more deer in WA, focus on saving the does, and keep a stable supply of mature bucks doing the breeding.

Don't run a gimmick that does nothing for the does, and only reduces the age class of breeding bucks, which further causes other biological issues.

Use good science and do whats right for the herd, even if that means slightly reduced hunter opportunities.

[huntnnw]

"Let me clue you in............you have created a huge bubble of juvenile bucks with very poor antler genetics who are doing the bulk of the breeding......."

This not correct...DNA is passed on no matter the age...even if his father had a 200" rack and he is the ofspring and one day if able to mature to 200" he still carries this gene no matter the age when he breeds

[DBHAWTHORNE]

"Let me clue you in............you have created a huge bubble of juvenile bucks with very poor antler genetics who are doing the bulk of the breeding......."

This not correct...DNA is passed on no matter the age...even if his father had a 200" rack and he is the ofspring and one day if able to mature to 200" he still carries this gene no matter the age when he breeds

Don't argue with his "good science"

[grundy53]

Sorry if I offend anyone but I don't exactly trust the bios that work for this state...

sent from my typewriter

[huntnnw]

 

[DBHAWTHORNE]

 I think a spread or mainbeam length would be a more effective management tool but Antler Point Restrictions will have to do. I think Mississippi does 10 inches inside spread or 13" main beam...too protect all of the 1 1/2 year old bucks. They did see a small decrease in the antler size of 3 1/2 year old deer because a lot of the 1 1/2 year old 4x4's were killed... that being said... I think we would fair better than them...we don't have near the hunting pressure they do there.

What is considered high pressure here is moderate pressure there at best.

[huntnnw]

must be road hunting pressure they are talking about around here, cause it sure as hell isnt people out hunting around NE WA..I have visited old rifle places I use to hunt or drove by and saw 0 rigs! this is DNR,state and natl forest lands. Then we gotta here them whine and cry about everything is crowded and nowhere to hunt. This isnt one area this is from Spokane to Canada! I elk hunt and kill bulls on a yearly basis 30 min from a population of almost 700,000 people but yet theres no elk and no where to hunt and I rarely see anyone ever

[grundy53]

all the 4pt better rule does is increase the average harvested age class by 1 yr..........that is it......ALL the data on whitetail APR's shows that these rules are effective for increasing the average age class of harvested buck by one yr, but VERY little, if any, recruitment into older age classes results from it.  The reason these rules are so "popular" is that it creates a stockpile of 2.5 yr old bucks in the population and the ave age of harvest goes from 1.5 yr old bucks to 2.5 yr old bucks;  1 yr old bucks have slightly larger antlers, and so people "think" there is something magical going on.

what you have to understand is that there is a "cost" to all of this;  I have ranted on here about these rules, and if you go back I made a prediction a couple of years ago, I predicted that you would see a very large increase in harvest of 4 and 5 pt bucks;  the data bears this out;

The cost to these rules is it puts tremendous pressure on the older age classes, while protecting the younger age class.

Since 2010 when the rule was implemented, the number of 4 and 5 pt bucks harvested in unit 117 has gone up 44%;  in unit 121 it has gone up 56%;

And, obviously, the number of bucks harvested smaller then 4 pts has gone to virtually zero;

What do you think is happening here???  what do you think a post harvest age class survey looks like know??

Let me clue you in............you have created a huge bubble of juvenile bucks with very poor antler genetics who are doing the bulk of the breeding.......the reason is, this class of bucks is "protected", whereas the older age classes is not protected.

The increase in harvest from 2011 to 2012 in the 4/5pt was huge..........next year it will be the same thing and will only get worse as more people come back to the units.  One of the first casualties of this rule will be the loss or dramatic shortening of the rifle general rut season;  if this rule is not dropped, that will happen in a couple of more years.

This is the unfortunate legacy of APR's in WA........ever shortening season structures...........more people, jammed into a smaller hunting season, while its 90 degrees on October 9th;  thats a real treat........

In 2012 in unit 121, there was 20,000 hunter days;  in 2009, the year before the rule was implemented there was over 31,000 hunter days;

1/3 less hunter days...........56% increase in harvest of 4/5pt's.................sorry, but these units cannot sustain that kind of pressure on the older age classes when the hunter days goes back to historical norms.

Trust me, there isn't some "magical" new population of 4 and 5 pt bucks;  the rule change just took essentially the same number of bucks in the population, and reshuffled the avg harvest age class by 1 yr; 

and, if anybody thinks this rule will be rescinded, ever, is extremely naive.......the reason is very simple and is mathmatically based..........the very first year that you implement an APR, you "save" a bunch of yearling class bucks and create a bubble of them in the population.

what do you think happens when you unwind the APR and let people shoot any buck?  its a complete wipeout.............huge increase in harvest; 

They will never get rid of it;

I find it interesting how every Western state has gotten rid of APR's for both Mule deer and whitetails and have essentially taken that science and deemed it junk; 

But, no, we have mysteriously stumbled upon the magical herd management technique of APR's for both mule deer and whitetails here in WA??  When Idaho, Montana, Colorado, Wyoming, Oregon, etc have relegated these APR's to the trash heap of failed deer management.

And, no, our whitetail herds are not he same as Eastern US herds where they have implemented APR's;  those herds are highly productive, very low buck to doe herds;

the reason APR's were implemented there was to incentivize hunters to shoot does........that is completely different then what we need; 

If you want more deer in WA, focus on saving the does, and keep a stable supply of mature bucks doing the breeding.

Don't run a gimmick that does nothing for the does, and only reduces the age class of breeding bucks, which further causes other biological issues.

Use good science and do whats right for the herd, even if that means slightly reduced hunter opportunities.

I don't agree with the way you are interpreting this data. Mainly because you are either over looking or purposefully omitting certain points. For one you are neglecting to touch on escapement.  You make it sound like all of these 1.5 year old bucks are just putting off their death for another year. The problem with that is in another year they are no longer 1.5 year old bucks they are 2.5 year old bucks and anyone that hunts whitetails can attest every year a whitetail buck is alive he gets exponentially smarter. Therefore it is more likely to outwit a hunter and survive another year to get even smarter. You say that since these APR's were started the percentage of 4 and 5 points has gone up by 44% and 56%. This was obviously to be expected and I don't think it's a bad thing. The main reason it has gone up is because that is all people can harvest so of course there is going to be more harvested. But also another reason it has gone up is because there are more 4 and 5 point bucks to harvest since they are not being shot when they are 1.5. Also, just because you put in an APR it doesn't mean everyones hunting skills all of the sudden got better. More then likely if you weren't killing mature bucks before the APR was implemented then your probably not killing them now. So I don't see why there would be a huge problem with recruitment. Also you bring up the post harvest survey, although you didn't actually say what the numbers were. The problem with that (besides this state's questionable animal counting ability) is that the post harvest time is also the post breeding time so those numbers are fairly irrelevant especially since by the time breeding time comes again those bucks will pretty much all be at least 4 points.  You make it sound like the spikes are doing most of the breeding that in itself is laughable. You talk about how most western states have done away with APRs and how you can't compare our herds to those back east. While I agree with that I also think this state is in a fairly unique situation. Every other state in the west has substantially more area/habitat and substantially less people per square mile. Therefore I argue while we don't have the herds like they do back east we also don't have the habitat of the western states therefore we are stuck in between. Which makes us more likely to benefit from some of the QDM practices in the more populated east. Finally, you say APRs don't build a stronger herd but there is a perfect example of it working right here in this state. Ever since the state went to three point or better for elk in western Washington the herd and hunting as improved dramatically.

[huntnnw]

  Winner winner...hit nail on the head

[popeshawnpaul]

all the 4pt better rule does is increase the average harvested age class by 1 yr..........that is it......ALL the data on whitetail APR's shows that these rules are effective for increasing the average age class of harvested buck by one yr, but VERY little, if any, recruitment into older age classes results from it.  The reason these rules are so "popular" is that it creates a stockpile of 2.5 yr old bucks in the population and the ave age of harvest goes from 1.5 yr old bucks to 2.5 yr old bucks;  1 yr old bucks have slightly larger antlers, and so people "think" there is something magical going on.

what you have to understand is that there is a "cost" to all of this;  I have ranted on here about these rules, and if you go back I made a prediction a couple of years ago, I predicted that you would see a very large increase in harvest of 4 and 5 pt bucks;  the data bears this out;

The cost to these rules is it puts tremendous pressure on the older age classes, while protecting the younger age class.

Since 2010 when the rule was implemented, the number of 4 and 5 pt bucks harvested in unit 117 has gone up 44%;  in unit 121 it has gone up 56%;

And, obviously, the number of bucks harvested smaller then 4 pts has gone to virtually zero;

What do you think is happening here???  what do you think a post harvest age class survey looks like know??

Let me clue you in............you have created a huge bubble of juvenile bucks with very poor antler genetics who are doing the bulk of the breeding.......the reason is, this class of bucks is "protected", whereas the older age classes is not protected.

The increase in harvest from 2011 to 2012 in the 4/5pt was huge..........next year it will be the same thing and will only get worse as more people come back to the units.  One of the first casualties of this rule will be the loss or dramatic shortening of the rifle general rut season;  if this rule is not dropped, that will happen in a couple of more years.

This is the unfortunate legacy of APR's in WA........ever shortening season structures...........more people, jammed into a smaller hunting season, while its 90 degrees on October 9th;  thats a real treat........

In 2012 in unit 121, there was 20,000 hunter days;  in 2009, the year before the rule was implemented there was over 31,000 hunter days;

1/3 less hunter days...........56% increase in harvest of 4/5pt's.................sorry, but these units cannot sustain that kind of pressure on the older age classes when the hunter days goes back to historical norms.

Trust me, there isn't some "magical" new population of 4 and 5 pt bucks;  the rule change just took essentially the same number of bucks in the population, and reshuffled the avg harvest age class by 1 yr; 

and, if anybody thinks this rule will be rescinded, ever, is extremely naive.......the reason is very simple and is mathmatically based..........the very first year that you implement an APR, you "save" a bunch of yearling class bucks and create a bubble of them in the population.

what do you think happens when you unwind the APR and let people shoot any buck?  its a complete wipeout.............huge increase in harvest; 

They will never get rid of it;

I find it interesting how every Western state has gotten rid of APR's for both Mule deer and whitetails and have essentially taken that science and deemed it junk; 

But, no, we have mysteriously stumbled upon the magical herd management technique of APR's for both mule deer and whitetails here in WA??  When Idaho, Montana, Colorado, Wyoming, Oregon, etc have relegated these APR's to the trash heap of failed deer management.

And, no, our whitetail herds are not he same as Eastern US herds where they have implemented APR's;  those herds are highly productive, very low buck to doe herds;

the reason APR's were implemented there was to incentivize hunters to shoot does........that is completely different then what we need; 

If you want more deer in WA, focus on saving the does, and keep a stable supply of mature bucks doing the breeding.

Don't run a gimmick that does nothing for the does, and only reduces the age class of breeding bucks, which further causes other biological issues.

Use good science and do whats right for the herd, even if that means slightly reduced hunter opportunities.

 

But where do you live?  If you can't live there you can't have an opinion...   

To those that "live" there...imagine thinking about the big picture instead of yourself.  Those 1/3rd less people have to hunt elsewhere or do.  You have now put pressure on other units and seasons.  The overall trend in lost opportunity is what many people find concerning.  While these people aren't on this forum, there is a huge contingent in the general hunting community that is happy with a spike and that's all they want.  I guess we will take those thousands of hunters and not let them shoot that meat buck with a 4 point rule.  They keep hunting until they see and shoot a larger 4 point or better buck.  More pressure on larger bucks but more deer "artificially" in the short term.  What you are seeing out there isn't "success" but just the expected results from this change.

[PA BEN]

Many 18 month old bucks are packin 4pts...........And are still running with the does when the season opens.   There should be NO entitlements for any user groups other than by permit.

When I was a kid, all hunters went by the same set of rules........as it should be always.  Take the emphasis off killing......teach them to enjoy hunting and being with other hunters.

There is significant improvements in our herd....Id hate to see it go backwards again at the expense of kids and seniors killing deer that should be passed, and that is to include me and my family , even the grand kids.

Kids are our future hunters, the old and disabled are the ones who earned it. I know for a fact that if it isn't fun and it's hard to harvest a deer they will quit. You think it's cost a lot to hunt now. BTW, I do live here and yes I see some nice bucks, but every year I see nice bucks. But what I don't see is a lot of fawns. Tons of does w/out fawns. And what I do see is tons of coyotes.

[dscubame]

After last year and not going to my once favorite area for 4 years...  I found my opportunity has increased with this 4 APR and it is the success of this 4 APR that I am now committed to heading back to the area I have so many fond memories of.  My hunting partner from Tri-Cities and one from Everett is equally excited and they are returning also.  It is like we got the band back together.  Thank you 4 point minimum.

[huntnnw]

Hunting A 3pt min area for whitey for the last 20 years and flipping back and forth between units the same year that have no restrictions is night and day for buck sightings..10x as many in the 3pt areas.

Ill see more bucks in 1 day in a 3pt min area than I will all season combined in non restricted areas.

People on here complaining about not hunting their "units" children and seniors being forced to shoot 4pts, well do you know the other option that was on the table? closing it! The bio's said this was the only logical way to keep it open to EVERYONE