4-point rule 117/121

[Bean Counter]

VOTE BEARPAW FOR WDFW COMISSIONER!

[PA BEN]

In response to PA Bens post

Maybe you forced your agenda on them by starting them at 8.  Maybe you should have waited until they were a little older and could understand what hunting was all about.    OBVIOUSLY I have no clue.

Not at all. My girls grew up w/me coming home w/deer, the only meat we ate was deer and they played deer hunter, just like you and me playing army as kids. I took them through hunter safety and they hunted w/me. I didn't have a problem getting my kids on deer. But that was when they could shoot any buck. My 14 year old who has harvested 5 deer still doesn't have the strength to hold a gun w/out a rest. Unless you have taken a kid or two or three out hunting for the first time you don't have a clue about it. BTW, most of the deer my kids shots have been head shots from 50 to 100 yds. Now w/this 4 point rule you have to let the spikes and forky's walk, nothing is more frustrating for a kid's first time buck is one standing there and you can't shoot it. I can get my deer no problem but open it up for the kids. And this is the opinion from most local folks who live here, pay taxes here and the farmers who keep the deer fat on their crops. How would you feel if this happened in your area where you live and hunted for generations? I see a lot of me, me and more me when it comes to hunting. The kids are our future. Bearpaw mentioned the winter of '92/'93, first hard winter since '68 and the deer got blue tong the summer before so they went into winter weak. That year the Game Dept. had double doe tags if you drew and still had the same the next year after the winter kill.  

[jackmaster]

i would take the word of someone like bearpaw or boneaddict before i would take the word of a bio anyways, bio's are paid by the state or federal goverment so your never gonna get the complete truth, atleast bearpaw or bone are, are own type of people and are gonna tell it how it is without a line B.S to obscure everything, people like those guys are on the ground hittn it alot more than bio's who do 50% of their work from a computer   

[CedarPants]

I personally think information like Bearpaw's is more useful in conversations like this than attacking each other for how one chooses to hunt, what age one starts their kids at, etc.  Common theme among hunters - when we disagree on a concept, it isn't long before the civil discussion diminishes and the personal attacks start.

Never got us anywhere.  Never will either 

[Jonathan_S]

I personally think information like Bearpaw's is more useful in conversations like this than attacking each other for how one chooses to hunt, what age one starts their kids at, etc.  Common theme among hunters - when we disagree on a concept, it isn't long before the civil discussion diminishes and the personal attacks start.

Never got us anywhere.  Never will either 

I agree with you but I think it's more of just people on the internet in general, not just hunters. 

Bearpaw's write-up not only refocused the conversation but I actually learned a great deal from it because I've really only been hunting the NE part of the state for a decade.

[bearpaw]

I think PA Ben has a legitimate concern and I share that concern. Our kids are our future!

The thing to remember is that the goal of the reduction in hunting opportunities was to let the herd recover. The whitetail working group discussed all the possible solutions before recommending the 4 pt rule. I can't speak for others in the group, but the 4pt rule seemed like a way to reduce buck harvest and get more bucks in the woods that are 2 years and older for breeding, while at the same time keeping the same season length. It was the option that the group chose.

Once we get past the 5 year test period so that the results of the rule can be properly assessed, and if the herd can support additional hunting pressure, I think additional hunting opportunity for kids, handicapped, and seniors should be considered first.

[Elkrunner]

It was supposed to be for 5 years to give it a proper trial. Numbers are still not where they should be but we are gaining, I too am seeing more mature bucks. This rule basically protects most of our first year bucks, by year 5 we should know more. We have so many predators that the herd is recovering pretty slowly.

Let's fix the real problem and wipe out some predators.

[dscubame]

It was supposed to be for 5 years to give it a proper trial. Numbers are still not where they should be but we are gaining, I too am seeing more mature bucks. This rule basically protects most of our first year bucks, by year 5 we should know more. We have so many predators that the herd is recovering pretty slowly.

Let's fix the real problem and wipe out some predators.

Now I like that statement.  I specifically take bear and drect people to bear in my elk draw in Idaho just for this reason.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

BTW, most of the deer my kids shots have been head shots from 50 to 100 yds. Now w/this 4 point rule you have to let the spikes and forky's walk, nothing is more frustrating for a kid's first time buck is one standing there and you can't shoot it. I can get my deer no problem but open it up for the kids. And this is the opinion from most local folks who live here, pay taxes here and the farmers who keep the deer fat on their crops. How would you feel if this happened in your area where you live and hunted for generations? I see a lot of me, me and more me when it comes to hunting. The kids are our future.

I won't argue that head shots aren't extremely effective when done correctly.....but... my own personal opinion here...  I would never  reccomend a head shot and personally consider them unethical on deer (again my own opinion)....a few inches to the left or a few low and now you have a deer with no upper jaw/nose or no lower jaw. a long slow death!.. I have seen a few head shot deer wondering around and it's never a pretty sight.

While I am all about a kid getting their first deer I see no reason to ignore sound QDM practices just to let a kid shoot the first deer that crosses their path. If anything I see the 4pt minimum as an excellent teaching point so that kids understand the importance of managing our resource. In my own experience  the childs feelings on the matter are generally tied to the attitude/opinion that their parent/mentor displays. If the mentor is making the 4pt minimum a positive then the child will usually share similar feelings (ultimatey leading to a positive experience even if they have to pass up an animal ..and a positive experience is exactly what we want). If the parent/mentor is very negative about the 4pt minimum then the child is going to have the same negative attitude/opinon regarding that matter (ultimatley leading to a negative experience if they have to pass on a 3 pt or less...which is not what we want)

"And this is the opinion from most local folks who live here,  pay taxes here and the farmers who keep the deer fat on their crops. How would you feel if this happened in your area where you live and hunted for generations? I see a lot of me, me and more me when it comes to hunting. The kids are our future."

It would make me happy to see us taking good measures to properly manage the herds.

[PA BEN]

A few kids taking any buck isn't going to harm the herd if you don't drop the 4 point rule for 16 and over.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

http://www.whitetailinstitute.com/info/news/jul03/2.html

It looks like Charles J. Alsheimer agrees with you PA.

[huntnnw]

I agree on the predator issue...Im amazed how many people who avidly pursue deer and elk refuse to hunt bears, coyotes etc. I kill a bear every year and multiple coyotes. These animals kill tons of fawns every year. DO your part! I dont even really want to hunt bears some years, but I do it knowing that my passion to hunt elk and deer is greater and try to help the herds out an do my part.

Ill even do  my part to help guys get bears..lotta people are cluless on how to hunt them and thats fine,but gotta learn one way or another. PM me and Ill give you all the info I know on getting bears and areas to go

[Ridgeratt]

I think PA Ben has a legitimate concern and I share that concern. Our kids are our future!

The thing to remember is that the goal of the reduction in hunting opportunities was to let the herd recover. The whitetail working group discussed all the possible solutions before recommending the 4 pt rule. I can't speak for others in the group, but the 4pt rule seemed like a way to reduce buck harvest and get more bucks in the woods that are 2 years and older for breeding, while at the same time keeping the same season length. It was the option that the group chose.

Once we get past the 5 year test period so that the results of the rule can be properly assessed, and if the herd can support additional hunting pressure, I think additional hunting opportunity for kids, handicapped, and seniors should be considered first.

For what it is worth!
I have maintained for years that any one who passes a Gun Safety course gets a complementary tag from the WDFW for any deer in this state regardless of species.
Let them shoot a deer! If they aren't successful then they turn the old tag back into the WDFG and the reissue the tag for the next year. until they do fill the tag! The impact on the deer herds would be not that  horrific regardless of mulies or Whitetails. It would allow the new hunters able to get a tag under their belts. Then after that they can  move to the big end of the pool!!   

[hambone]

I hunted the 49 degree north unit for 20 years saw it go from a great late buck unit to a place were i hunted hard all day and was lucky to see a deer my spot had a nice little herd of elk well between pouching and bad winters and predators the only way to help the herds is the four point  rule it really sucks to lose a good hunting area hope this helps the herds so future hunters get to hunt some great areas

[huntnnw]

  I hunt elk in 49 unit...pretty sad deer numbers. I have a cam on high mountain spring no water for miles there and u would think the deer would show on the cam there, I get a couple of does never had a buck come to the water...lotta moose,elk and bears. rarely jump any deer, last year I saw 3 little bucks which was a first. Before that it had been 2 years since I saw a buck