4-point rule 117/121

[bearpaw]

Also- it was NEVER pushed along by outfitters as a trophy objective.  It was sportsman's groups and locals that care about the deer that made it happen.

Regardless what "objective" excuse was used, outfitters did indeed participate in the "push" to impliment the restriction, Dale was one of them.

So wth, because I am an outfitter you are saying I don't care about the deer. 

I'll guarantee I care more than most people, no offense to anyone but it's pretty easy to figure out. I grew up here hunting from the time I could follow my dad in the woods and most all my family and friends hunt. My business depends on good deer numbers, why on earth would I want to hurt the deer herds. The whole NE economy depends on good wildlife numbers.

This is getting pretty old hearing I am some kind of anti-christ because I am an outfitter. Some of you people need to get over it, the deer, elk, and other wildlife are more important to me than most other people.   

JEESH.....

Come on Dale, you should know better than that. He said it was NEVER pushed by outfitters, suggesting that any and all outfitters had nothing to do with it, I simply reminded him that you are indeed a outfitter and admittedly was part of "the whitetail group". Never once did I insinuate that you don't care about the herds or are the anti Christ, I reserve that title to certain politians.

OK, my apologies for misreading your comment. 

I may be a little over-sensitive, I have had "he's an outfitter" thrown in my face once to often and I'm done not saying anything when someone comments that way. Outfitters have more skin in the game than anyone, not only do we and our families love hunting, our livelihood depends on good game management and our businesses support all types of other local businesses. Even the WDFW benefits greatly from my business in license sales.

[huntnphool]

Also- it was NEVER pushed along by outfitters as a trophy objective.  It was sportsman's groups and locals that care about the deer that made it happen.

Regardless what "objective" excuse was used, outfitters did indeed participate in the "push" to impliment the restriction, Dale was one of them.

So wth, because I am an outfitter you are saying I don't care about the deer. 

I'll guarantee I care more than most people, no offense to anyone but it's pretty easy to figure out. I grew up here hunting from the time I could follow my dad in the woods and most all my family and friends hunt. My business depends on good deer numbers, why on earth would I want to hurt the deer herds. The whole NE economy depends on good wildlife numbers.

This is getting pretty old hearing I am some kind of anti-christ because I am an outfitter. Some of you people need to get over it, the deer, elk, and other wildlife are more important to me than most other people.   

JEESH.....

Come on Dale, you should know better than that. He said it was NEVER pushed by outfitters, suggesting that any and all outfitters had nothing to do with it, I simply reminded him that you are indeed a outfitter and admittedly was part of "the whitetail group". Never once did I insinuate that you don't care about the herds or are the anti Christ, I reserve that title to certain politians.

OK, my apologies for misreading your comment. 

I may be a little over-sensitive, I have had "he's an outfitter" thrown in my face once to often and I'm done not saying anything when someone comments that way. Outfitters have more skin in the game than anyone, not only do we and our families love hunting, our livelihood depends on good game management and our businesses support all types of other local businesses. Even the WDFW benefits greatly from my business in license sales.

[bearpaw]

no worries, group hug and all that... 

[huntnphool]

no worries, group hug and all that... 

[bearpaw]

From what I could see everyone who was involved in the whitetail working group is sincerely concerned about improving our deer herds. As far as I know I was the only outfitter in the group, most are hunters and area residents who are seriously concerned. We also had 2 or 3 county commissioners who know that abundant wildlife is important to our local economy, several Spokane area residents and a western WA group representative. Not everyone agreed with the rule, but it was definitely the most popular option and ended up being our recommendation.

There seems this concern that we cannot get rid of the rule for any reason. If at the end of the 5 year trial it appears the rule is harming our herds then I will most assuredly support ending the rule. If it appears the rule has improved our herd, I will continue to support the rule. I can't speak for anyone else but I think most of the members of the group would do the same.

We also recommended better data collection by WDFW as it was seriously lacking. I have to commend WDFW for responding with more August transect counts, a new whitetail study, and overall increased data gathering. 

Now comes the negative about WDFW, we were basically told that predator management was not an option. They won't even consider it. 

I have heard that the study is finding that feral dogs are a significant factor in deer mortality. We knew it was a factor, but I heard it may be more significant than some people thought. I am hoping the group gets more updates from WDFW soon.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

"Let me clue you in............you have created a huge bubble of juvenile bucks with very poor antler genetics who are doing the bulk of the breeding......."

This not correct...DNA is passed on no matter the age...even if his father had a 200" rack and he is the ofspring and one day if able to mature to 200" he still carries this gene no matter the age when he breeds

The problem is, generally the bucks that carry the big antler genes generally have bigger antlers/more points at an earlier age than average bucks. With most of Eastern Washington's buck seasons before the rut, the bucks with the best antler genes get taken out before breeding time, leaving the smaller/less point gened bucks to pass on their genes. Sure, some larger gened bucks will survive in the timber and brush of NE Washington and some will survive on private property, but the longer this experiment lasts, the sheer numbers of smaller bucks breeding compared to the few large bucks that survive to breed will tilt the herd to smaller antlered bucks. You may see lots of bucks, but they'll be sub-legal.

A smarter strategy would be a spike/fork hunt before the rut, then a 5 pt or better hunt after the rut to keep the big boy genes in the pool. You could also divide the hunters by making them choose spike/fork hunt or 5 pt hunt, the way elk is managed by east and west side. That would lower the number of hunters in the field during each season and allow people to decide for themselves if they want a meat hunt or a trophy hunt.

Don't argue with his "good science"

[boneaddict]

I have heard that the study is finding that feral dogs are a significant factor in deer mortality

Check out all of these that keep popping up on trail cams.  (possible wolf sightings).  Imagine all the other fluffies, and then there are those that have a porch to come back to when they are done running and frolicking.   Drives me nuts, but that's a whole new topic.

[PA BEN]

I know we had quite the spirited discussion over this when this rule first came about in GMU 117 and 121. This will be the 3rd year for this rule in these units. What do you guys think now? I still say kids and seniors should be able to shoot any buck. The first year my buddy tried to get his daughter on a 4 point and by the time doe season opened she was burned out and quit hunting. Last year she didn’t hunt until the doe season opened and she got a nice big doe. It’s all about getting the youth out hunting.

Why start up the subject again if the subject was so fiery? I hunt in those two units the most and the whitetails have been destroyed. I have noticed considerable numbers of deer back in those units. I love it, I wish they would keep it 4-pt for at least 3 more years. Then start giving out liberal doe tags again. Just my opinion and  , for what it's worth.

if you read what I posted you would see why

[predatorpro]

how is a 4 point rule for whitetail any different than the 3 point rule for a muley? welcome to our world! if its a 3 point and its a whitetail....you know it has good eyeguards which makes it a 4 point, you have to shoot the same sized deer as all us now cuz eyeguards dont count when your braggin to your buddy anyways...lol

[huntnnw]

 

[MTMule]

I don't wantto sound like a dick, and especially since I rarely if ever post here, but you have to be one dense know it all idiot to think this wouldn't work.

I want to address a few things that have already been addressed, but I feel they are significant. When a buck gets another year to live. He will be smarter and harder to kill the next year.. This is common sense to anyone who has hunted for more then a few years.

Another thing... The argument all the big bucks are going to be killed now, and leave poor genetics... So many things wrong with that statement. First off, if you weren't killing mature bucks before, it's unlikely you will now. Secondly, genetics are passed on at any age. A buck doesn't have to be fully mature with a huge rack to pass on his genes. If that huge buck passed on his genes at an early age, it's the same thing....

[oneshot12]

  make scene all the way around dont it 

[Sitka_Blacktail]

I don't wantto sound like a dick, and especially since I rarely if ever post here, but you have to be one dense know it all idiot to think this wouldn't work.

Ok let's take a little look at the results of this little experiment so far. The winters of 07 and 08 knocked the herd down so we want to see how hunting has recovered since, and we'll want something to compare the two 4 pt units to, so I'll include the 4 units that surround 117 and 121 since they will have the closest similarities of conditions as for knocking the herd down and recovery ie weather, food, and predators. I'm gonna use harvest stats, cuz that's the bottom line for most hunters.

In the 2008 season, the first after the first bad recent winter, hunters took 1,346 deer in unit 117 and 2,232 deer in unit 121. In surrounding units 108, 111, 113, and 124 hunters took 418 in 108, 441 in 111, 444 in 113, and 2,984 in 124.

Things bottomed out about 2010.

Unit 108, 389 deer
Unit 111, 391 deer
Unit 113, 389 deer
Unit 124, 2,354 deer

Unit 117, 1,053 deer
Unit 121, 1,455 deer

Then things turned around........except in 117 and 121

2012,
In unit 108 the harvest was 425 deer or up 1.6 % from 2008.
In unit 111 the harvest was 441 deer or up 10% from 2008.
In unit 113 the harvest was 444 deer or up .5% from 2008.
In unit 124 the harvest was 2952 deer or down 1% from 2008.

Basically all back to 2008 levels or slightly up, just by keeping things the same and letting nature take it's course.

But in the 4pt or better units........

Unit 117, 884 deer, DOWN 34% from 2008
Unit 121, 1,238 deer, DOWN 44.5% from 2008

Now you might argue that was because the 4 pt restriction  reduced the harvest, but that should have been a one year glitch in 2011. In 2011 younger bucks were stockpiled so if the restriction worked 2012 should have eclipsed the harvest gains in the surrounding non restricted units. So far, that hasn't happened. We will see. So far it hasn't translated into hunter success.

You may also try to argue that the reduction is from reduced doe harvest. So lets compare buck harvest.

Unit 117
2008 had 998 bucks harvested, 2012 had 681 bucks or a loss of 31.7%

Unit 121
2008 had 1499 bucks harvested, 2012 had 930 bucks or a loss of 40%.

Now convince me these restrictions are working.

[boneaddict]

I suppose something as simple as the weather has nothing to do with statistics........
then throw in say the economy......(depending on how you view the statistics, hunterdays etc)
then throw in how inaccurate they may be in the first place because of hunter bias or lies or withholding of information because of the government, or folks not wanting people to know they can score in any given unit.    
I would suggest that maybe ones own observations might be better.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

I think the weather, economy, and people's honesty would affect all those units fairly similarly.