4-point rule 117/121

[buckfvr]

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20130713/COLUMNISTS01/307130009/Antler-rule-points-buck-survival-issue

Good read about about APR.

Less older bucks and smaller antlers on the ones that do manage to survive. That pretty much sums it up.

I see they try pretty hard not to blame it on genetic filtering, but consider this. Evolution is not so much about sudden changes for no apparent reason. It's about passing on traits that help your survival chances such as coloring and size. Adaptability! It's why we end up with sub-species like Coues Whitetails. Smaller body size is better in the desert heat than large body mass. So when we make rules for harvesting game based on antler size, we are making antler size an important factor on whether an animal lives to pass on it's genes. If small antlers means an animal has a better chance to pass on it's genes, I guarantee you, more animals will have smaller antlers.

So what credentials do you poses that enable you to make such profound guarantees   When can we ( those of us that live here ) expect to see all these mature bucks with shrinking antlers   How will they do this?  Eat less of the abundant forage or skip noon meal ?

I spend alot of time seeing which bucks make it through til the end of all hunting  seasons.......THE BIGGEST BUCKS SURVIVED...................I know them on a near personal basis, pics spring summer, fall and winter......there are so many bucks in my area its near unbelievable.....I dont tell anyone because no one believes it with out seeing it.  THE 4pt rule is working for now and some study somewhere else can not convince me it isnt helping  in the immediate sense, we'll see how it looks in anothe couple seasons.....but for now, ITS HELPING......

                                                                                               

[bearpaw]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_Army_Depot

Originally the white deer were protected and only brown deer were shot. Being white meant you had a better chance at survival, thus passing on your genes. This is how the white deer herd of Senaca army base was created.

Dogs came from wolves, but selective breeding by humans has created hundreds of breeds of dogs from Chihuahua to St Bernard, only a few of which resemble wolves any more.

Antler restrictions are a form of selective breeding, especially when most hunts are before or during the rut.

OK I agree that you can modify genetics when you control the breeders, but you have sidestepped every point we have made which shows the unlikelihood of this happening in NE WA with the 4 point rule.

[grundy53]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_Army_Depot

Originally the white deer were protected and only brown deer were shot. Being white meant you had a better chance at survival, thus passing on your genes. This is how the white deer herd of Senaca army base was created.

Dogs came from wolves, but selective breeding by humans has created hundreds of breeds of dogs from Chihuahua to St Bernard, only a few of which resemble wolves any more.

Antler restrictions are a form of selective breeding, especially when most hunts are before or during the rut.

Once again this assumes you kill a huge majority of the largest bucks. Which is not going to happen.

sent from my typewriter

[bearpaw]

I simply cannot understand why certain people are so opposed to trying this in 2 units for 5 years and then assessing the results. 

[buckfvr]

When everything you read causes you to over-ride logic and real time results in a given area with plenty of people in attendance on a daily basis to access the improvements.................where the heck did all the common sense go?

[Sitka_Blacktail]

[quote author=Sitka_Blacktail link=topic=129556.msg1741371#msg1741371

Less older bucks and smaller antlers on the ones that do manage to survive. That pretty much sums it up.

I see they try pretty hard not to blame it on genetic filtering, but consider this. Evolution is not so much about sudden changes for no apparent reason. It's about passing on traits that help your survival chances such as coloring and size. Adaptability! It's why we end up with sub-species like Coues Whitetails. Smaller body size is better in the desert heat than large body mass. So when we make rules for harvesting game based on antler size, we are making antler size an important factor on whether an animal lives to pass on it's genes. If small antlers means an animal has a better chance to pass on it's genes, I guarantee you, more animals will have smaller antlers.

So what credentials do you poses that enable you to make such profound guarantees   When can we ( those of us that live here ) expect to see all these mature bucks with shrinking antlers   How will they do this?  Eat less of the abundant forage or skip noon meal ?                                                                                           
[/quote]

I've got a computer, the internet, and a brain. Just like you.

The story that was linked mentioned that while the restrictions left more 2 1/2 year old bucks, it actually reduced the # of 3 1/2 year and older bucks because of increased pressure on branched bucks. I've seen similar stories from other states with antler restrictions.

Interesting reading...  http://deer.fw.msu.edu/docs/effects%20of%20selective%20harvest%20strategies%20on%20deer%20antler%20size.pdf

[boneaddict]

 

[dscubame]

Nutty. 

[CedarPants]

I simply cannot understand why certain people are so opposed to trying this in 2 units for 5 years and then assessing the results. 

Some appear to be arguing just to argue 

[PA BEN]

I simply cannot understand why certain people are so opposed to trying this in 2 units for 5 years and then assessing the results. 

I'm all for it, but open it up for any buck for kids, disabled and seniors. I hope to take out an 80 year old man who doesn't get around very good this fall. It isn't going to drop the buck population at all.

[Bigshooter]

Almost every western state has had apr at some point.  And just about everyone of those states says it doesnt work.  Washington is about the only western state that still use apr for the vast majority of there hunting units.  And washington is considered to have poor quality.

I can't believe the lack of mule deer hunters that are on this site constantly complaining about all the giant two points that the 3pt apr has caused have not commented about this.

[Bigshooter]

You cant compare NE WA populations to eastern states.  NE WA doesnt have 500,000 hunters killing 300,000 to 500,000 deer every hunting season like in the midwest.  When you are killing that many deer I could see where some kind of apr would be beneficial but not in NE WA where deer escapement is high.

[winshooter88]

You want to see big two point mulies, go down to Grand Coulee. The biologist who used to be there tried to get the season changed to a two point season for years. Cause according to him that was most of what you would see around there, due to the three point or better apr.

[grundy53]

Whitetail are very different from mule deer. A 4 point whitetail is pretty much equivalent to a2 point muley. Generally their second year thats what they are.

sent from my typewriter

[Bigshooter]

Whitetail are very different from mule deer. A 4 point whitetail is pretty much equivalent to a2 point muley. Generally their second year thats what they are.

sent from my typewriter

You need to do some more research on wt's.  Everything I can find says a wt generally has 2 or 3 points per side his second year and sometimes more.  Which sounds a lot like a mule deer.