Spike or no spike? Shoot or no shoot? And now we know....

[h20hunter]

Loophole.....that just gives me the chills when it comes to trying to fill a tag.

[elk247]

Legal. It's a spike with an eye guard that simple. The definition is "originating 4" above where the antler is attached to the skull" ORIGINATING... Therefore begins, starts, (branches). So like I said spike with an eye guard on the right side. Tine length plays no factor.   

   I absolutely agree.  Its basisally a 1x1x4 or like said just a very long eye guard.  I've seen  a 1x3x3 in the quilemene, I let it pass and another guy shot it and it was legal.

1X1x4!?!?    you guys aren't really going to play Russian roulette with your hunting privileges are you? This was a good picture to post up. That bull has cool charactor. I think by the time you cape it out you will be measuring for fractions of an inch one way or the other from the skull plate to the fork. I wouldn't ever gamble on fractions of an inch let alone "inches"  unless i was in a 1x1x4 unit. Then I'd take him panfried, cut on the bias with salt, pepper and flour.

[RadSav]

Maybe you could claim that it is a single antler point originating from the middle.

[provider]

My thought was that there is no question it is a 2X4.  Might even be a 2X5 come season.  There is no debate as to whether it's a 1X4, but whether it is a 2X4 that one might get away with shooting based upon a loophole in the regulations description.

That's correct.  There is no question or debate that elk does not represent a bull falling under the intent of the Spike Bull Restriction management strategy.  Just because it might eek by legally on a technicality... doesn't make it right.  I'm surprised how many people are willing to compromise values just to kill an elk. 

[elk247]

  I like how D-rock is saying shoot, shoot. Don't listen h20, he probably wants to get you in trouble so he can have your ration of s'mores. Aye, he always be after your lucky charms  like I said D-rock just knock that eyegaurd off with a horseshoe.  Then 

[rtspring]

Take it from a guy who knows what hell is to go through! If I had any doubt this animal was not legal, no way in heck would I pull the trigger!  No way what so ever! No elk in the world is worth the time and money proving your case that you believe it to be legal!

I passed a spike last year that I knew was 95% sure a spike!!  Foggy, trees and an old thing in my mind saying not sure dont shoot!!


Rtspring

[Skillet]

My thought was that there is no question it is a 2X4.  Might even be a 2X5 come season.  There is no debate as to whether it's a 1X4, but whether it is a 2X4 that one might get away with shooting based upon a loophole in the regulations description.

That's correct.  There is no question or debate that elk does not represent a bull falling under the intent of the Spike Bull Restriction management strategy.  Just because it might eek by legally on a technicality... doesn't make it right.  I'm surprised how many people are willing to compromise values just to kill an elk.

Well, that's a strong statement...  The intent of the spike bull restriction management is to increase the bull:cow ratio by making essentially only 1.5 year old bulls available for harvest.  If you killed a 1.5 year old bull that had forked at the top of each antler, making it JUST barely a 2x2, the intent of the law should let you tag it legally anyway.  That "intent of the law" argument isn't going to fly with a gamie in the field who finds you with the 2x2, but clearly 1.5 year old animal, however.  So I think it goes both ways.  They defined the rules, we are expected to stick to them.  If a freak fits within the rules as the Department defined them, I say it's a good stroke of luck for the hunter and he's going to have a unique trophy.  It is far from the situation you describe above, which is somebody compromising their values just to kill an elk. 
And if you are insinuating that we who would shoot are compromising the Department's values by shooting, well... I have my own personal values and ethics.  I do not let a printed set of rules that I respectfully choose to follow (game department's or any other) determine those for me.

[headshot5]

Now that the DFW made a ruling on the elk, it is going to be dancing around in front of you on opening day.   

[Gringo31]

I'm with some of the guys on here that would pass because there was doubt.  I'm not taking that kind of risk for a stupid spike.  Risk/reward equation is WAY out of balance on the risk side for me.....

[D-Rock425]

Problem solved

[Skillet]

Problem solved

SSS/

Shoot, Saw, Shut up?

[wog]

answer this; is there a branch antler  orgionating 4" inches above the base of the skull,, i say no it do'se not branch 4 inch above base of skull therefore it is a leagal elk

[RadSav]

answer this; is there a branch antler  orgionating 4" inches above the base of the skull,, i say no it do'se not branch 4 inch above base of skull therefore it is a leagal elk

Answer this; Is it a spike?

Unless it has changed over the past 20 years there is a vague rule of law called obviousness.   The "originating 4 in. above" rule in the game regulations, in my opinion, is there to hold a hunter harmless when there was non-obviousness in the proof the animal had additional points under the conditions of a hunting environment.  Thus no longer an obvious definition of "Spike Elk".

So again, in my opinion, the obviousness by people of average skill level to recognize this elk as being a two point bull supersedes the 4" definition in the regulations.  Being that this is considered a vague rule of law it would probably require a judge and/or jury to prove definitively.  However, I would assume that might have some barring on why the WDFW came to it's conclusion in their note of response to H2O. 

Maybe, maybe not!  I'm certainly not going to risk my financial stability and hunting rights on the 4" rule holding up in this case.  Especially when the WDFW, in advance, has ruled otherwise. 

It is a cool animal though.  And a fun change of pace from the ordinary H-W thread.

[elk247]

  in the picture with the frontal view you can see daylight between the 1st tine and top of his head. Now add an inch or more for hair, hide and measure from the skull plate to the fork. I think it would be way to close to call.  great thread guys. Its a fun debate.

[Kowsrule30]

100% legal... It's plain and simple... A spike with an eye guard... Not even close to 4" above base of antler... I've shot two spikes that have had eye guards... I don't see what everybody is so worked up about... It's clearly written in the regs that it's legal...
I also know of a guy who shot a spike bull in Cowichie that was about 3 1/2 tall with a 2' spread... Aged at 5 1/2 years old... And I know I'm not the only one who saw the kid during muzzy elk in Cowichie last year who killed a legit huge bodied 1x6... Totally legal and a great way to get unwanted genetics out... My guess was the bull was probably 6 1/2 years old...