northeast antler restrictions

[DeKuma]

AMEN Colville!!

[Gobble]

Couldn't have said it better myself Colville. Not everyone in completely engulfed in the Antler hunt. I love to shoot the big uns as much as the next guy but I also love venison as does my family. If I can take a lesser buck near the end of the latehunt I will 

[croix]

I've never been an antler hunter. I enjoy meat in the freezer; but I think we can achieve both. Allowing spikes opens opportunities for many hunters (esp. young hunters) and removes genetically inferior bucks. Adding a limit of 4 points or better ensures that the genetically superior bucks have the opportunity to mature and to breed; thereby creating a stronger herd.

Of course the whole herd would get out of whack if there isn't also an allowance for antlerless deer. Allowing antlerless increases the buck:doe ratio (which has been proven to increase overall herd strength, quality, and size) and provides even more opportunities for those family hunts - which I also value a great deal.

I wouldn't be happy if the only chance my 14 yo daughter had of harvesting a deer was 4 point or better, but I feel there are ways to offer opportunity and increase overall genetic quality of the whitetails in NE Wa.

[Palmer]

What Colville says is true.  You don't have to go far in the Northeast to get away from all the other hunters.  The big Whitetail bucks have a home range of less than a square mile.  So hike in a mile or two off the beaten path and you'll be in some great area with a great chance at a monster buck.

[rasbo]

Couldn't have said it better myself Colville. Not everyone in completely engulfed in the Antler hunt. I love to shoot the big uns as much as the next guy but I also love venison as does my family. If I can take a lesser buck near the end of the latehunt I will 

at the price of tags,Im not to picky,Ive got two packs of deer left,if its legal its going down.

[WAcoyotehunter]

I'm in favor of the three point restriction.  more mature deer in the herd makes a healthier herd.

[hambone]

ive hunted the 49 unit for 20 years all i have taken is young bucks but have seen some huge ones taken were i hunt. see the same people most years. if they are like me i dont care if i take a big buck or a young one i get to do what i love to do hunt. so leave it the way it is only one change go back to opening late buck a little later.

[bornforhorns]

Colville...we have disagreed once or twice I believe...but this time you got it exactly right...I feel the same way about mule deer in "general" .  I love Washington for the opportunity it provides, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.  No where else can you hunt 3 species of deer so freely. AMEN!  Unbelievable anybody living here could gripe and say how much better these other states are.

[SHANE(WA)]

Shanevg they are talking whitetails on the antler restrictiions, u havent taken a drive thru the mica unit during the rut and seen how many nice bucks you see, the hunting is 10 times better than north of the river.

[SHANE(WA)]

mhwalsh, you kidding about changing your hunting style? the buck to doe ratio is way out of whack in the deer park,clayton,elk,chattaroy and springdale area. I live right in the middle of these areas and spend everyday of my life driving thru it.I guide in these units.I have seen fields in spring dale that had 150+ does in it and 2 bucks and were only 1 1/2, same goes for alot of the fields arounf the units, 50 does and 5 bucks, that hardly passes as good hunting, those are the stories you hear "it seems the rut wasnt going" well no s#$% way to many does, no competion so the deer dont seem to move.Hunting the 3pt min south of the river is like night and day, I hunt both sides during late archery, the action and amount of bucks I see are not even comparable, dont even try to convince me they dont work, for muleys maybe.

[Colville]

Restrict this northern whitetail herd that can take a tremendous pressure and still be viable and you will distribute those folks back to mule deer. If the odds of a kill become comparable to mule deer because you have a 4 pt reg, why skip general mule deer near home to drive for late whites?

Rack hunters always assume there's no drift in pressure and everyone is hunting for their reasons. NE WA is the only ultra productive area that can stand 2 general any buck seasons by rifle in the state. Take that away and the incentive to hunt there disappears and all the easy access east slope mule deer areas get the pressure. Why drive 8 hours when you get the same odds in the Klickitat, Manastash, Manson, Okanogan etc. This hunt provides, (mind you without consequence to the herd, it's doing marvelously) fantastic hunting opportunity for tons of days afield. Restrict it by antler and you redistribute those hunters. Almost NO ONE lives in that part of the state so most of it's hunters migrate there for the season and will think twice before doing so if their traditional success rates are halved.

There's no post suggesting any study that says NE whitetail herds are harmed by the way they are hunted now and for the last decade. They can be managed for either maximum quality or maximum opportunity but not both. Move to quality and you have to able to apply the law of supply/demand and that of diminishing returns to hunter pressure and distribution.  

The continuous push for rack hunting means less success, fewer hunters, fewer hunter days per year and fewer families continuing their traditional hunting camps. The whole thing reeks of hunt elitism. As if the reason we pursue our hunts with our fathers, sons and daughters is strictly one of horns. As though we don't have the option to pursue horns without taking this opportunity from them.

Bone has killed enough to carry stick and string in a rifle draw season. God bless him, that's cool and a position I completely respect. But one he's chosen and not one he's been forced to make.  Another young family man has a 65 year old father with limited eye sight and mobility, a son who's 13 and daughter who's 11. They make sausage, jerky and roasts all off season and relive their experiences. They've hunted the same camp for 20 years. Their enjoyment comes from their family, memories and hunts re-experienced in the venison they process and sustain themselves by all year. Horn hunters are dropping trow and pissing on their tradition because it doesn't make big enough racks and what kills me is they feel righteous as they do it.

[croix]

Colville's passionate response has caused me to do a little more homework specific to the area instead of just general reports on whitetail management. The most recent WDFW Deer Status and Trend Report is from 2006 but has a lot of really good data.
Here are some of the highlights:

58% of bucks taken were yearlings
18-19% of bucks taken had 5 pts or more on their high side
Antlerless harvests were up 27%
Buck to doe ratios are as high as 35:100
Bucks taken over the age of 4 was 26-27%
Overall whitetail harvest increased 19% (congruent with 19% increase in hunter participation)

Although I would personally like to see a higher buck:doe ratio, I think that the current plan of allowing the increased harvest of antlerless deer (limited second tags, youth, senior, and ADA tags) is a step in the right direction.

Bottom line - Based on this data there is NO WAY that I can support any form of antler restrictions in the NE.

Thanks to Colville for pointing out "There's no post suggesting any study that says NE whitetail hers are harmed by the way they are hunted now...", but I gotta say that I don't think all rack hunters "always" assume anything.

[bobcat]

I'm in favor of the three point restriction.  more mature deer in the herd makes a healthier herd.

How would a 3 point restriction provide more mature deer? Seems to me it would do the opposite. With the restriction, all the guys who would have shot little spikes and 2 points will end up shooting a bigger buck (or nothing at all.) So won't the harvest of mature bucks increase, and therefore decrease the number of mature bucks in the herd? Just asking as I'm confused as to how putting more pressure on the mature bucks will increase their numbers.

[WAcoyotehunter]

Restrict this northern whitetail herd that can take a tremendous pressure and still be viable and you will distribute those folks back to mule deer. If the odds of a kill become comparable to mule deer because you have a 4 pt reg, why skip general mule deer near home to drive for late whites?

I think you're right on this point.  There's likely to be some hunter movement if there's a 3 pt regulation.

What some people are not understanding is that the harvest will not be halved...for long.  The deer will still be there, but for a season or two they may not be legal.  The # of bucks that mature will go up and in a couple of seasons we'll see harvest in line with current stats, except the % of mature deer harvest will be higher.    It's going to take a few seasons, but everyone is likely to benefit from this regulation.

There are several advantages to having more mature deer in the herd.  The mature bucks are more successful breeders.  This creates a more tightly defined rut and therefore a more tightly defined fawning period.  The fawning period is critical for two reasons, does can "flood the market" for predators for the first few weeks of the fawns life to decrease predation and the fawns are more prepared for a winter if they're concieved on the first estrus cycle.  

Some argue that there will be more two points left dead in the woods...I'm not sure how to approach this.  I guess it's like everything else- if we (hunters) can't police ourselves, no regulations will work.  I don't see lots of dead 2 pt mule deer left in the woods, I'm not sure why we would expect to see that with white tails?

[WAcoyotehunter]

I'm in favor of the three point restriction.  more mature deer in the herd makes a healthier herd.

How would a 3 point restriction provide more mature deer? Seems to me it would do the opposite. With the restriction, all the guys who would have shot little spikes and 2 points will end up shooting a bigger buck (or nothing at all.) So won't the harvest of mature bucks increase, and therefore decrease the number of mature bucks in the herd? Just asking as I'm confused as to how putting more pressure on the mature bucks will increase their numbers.

Good question- there will be more mature deer to hunt because the spikes and forks (highest percentage of harvest) will have the chance to mature into three points. 

There may also be more escapement becasue hunters will have to id their target and the deer might have a chance to run.