Old Ammo... ???

[Sportfury]

My mom was doing some cleaning the other day and found some old ammunition that my grandfather had. There was a couple .45 Long Colts, a .38-40, and a .25-35, but there are two that I have no idea what they are. One looks like a .50 caliber and is bigger than the .45, but it has no primer. It almost looks like it is a rimfire. The last one looks like it is some type of .22 caliber. I am thinking .22-250, but not sure. Do any of you have any insight as to what the last two might be.

The first photo shows them all. The big rimfire is on the left, the .38-55, (2) .45 long colts, .25-35, and the .22 cal.


The rimfire end


From the side


If you know anything about these I would not mind hearing about it.

[jeepster]

could it be something similar to a 45-70?

kinda looks to be in the same general shape and size..... I know they experimented with rimfire vs center fire primers, including belted cartridges back in the day in all sorts of weird caliber/primer combos.......

looks like a 45-70

[jeepster]

http://www.militaryrifles.com/Denmark/DanshRem.htm

and yes, they did experiment with belted black powder rimfire cartridges....

im no expert, but, that is my guess

I think the reason why centerfire vs rimfire was favored was due to higher ignition temperatures and the fact the brass could be reloaded and handle smokeless? that's my assumption; I don't know if that is fact......

[Sportfury]

could it be something similar to a 45-70?

kinda looks to be in the same general shape and size..... I know they experimented with rimfire vs center fire primers, including belted cartridges back in the day in all sorts of weird caliber/primer combos.......

looks like a 45-70

That is what I thought at first, .45-70, but when you hold one of the .45 long colts up to this cartridge it is bigger than the .45.

[HawkCreek]

http://www.oldammo.com/november04.htm

This may help in your research.

[Sportfury]

HawkCreek thanks for the link.

Here is what I found. The head stamp has R 5 82 F stamped on it. According to this website "R" stands for rifle and the next two stand for the month and date that the cartridge was made; May of 1882. The "F" stands for the Frankford Arsenal where it was made. The cartridge was loaded with black powder.

My grandfather always talked about owning a Krag rifle when he was a kid. When he talked Krag I always thought .30-40 Krag and I think he did mention that cartridge, but after looking at jeepster's post I have to wonder if it was 1867/96 Danish Remington Rolling Block. He always talked about the bad deals that my great-grandfather go into with the local, shady Tacomans back in the day (1930s) and after one such deal when my grandfather was a teenager they raided my great-grandfather's home and took all his guns as payback. He also said that his uncle owned a bar in Tacoma and he used to keep a big, old rifle over the mantel/mirror behind the bar. It was also stolen one night when someone robbed the bar. I have to wonder what kind of bar this would have been because it would have been around the prohibition era.

[Knocker of rocks]

could it be something similar to a 45-70?

kinda looks to be in the same general shape and size..... I know they experimented with rimfire vs center fire primers, including belted cartridges back in the day in all sorts of weird caliber/primer combos.......

looks like a 45-70

That is what I thought at first, .45-70, but when you hold one of the .45 long colts up to this cartridge it is bigger than the .45.

Time to get a mike or dial caliper

[Sportfury]

could it be something similar to a 45-70?

kinda looks to be in the same general shape and size..... I know they experimented with rimfire vs center fire primers, including belted cartridges back in the day in all sorts of weird caliber/primer combos.......

looks like a 45-70

 
That is what I thought at first, .45-70, but when you hold one of the .45 long colts up to this cartridge it is bigger than the .45.

Time to get a mike or dial caliper

LOL... I was using the eyeball and to lazy to go in the shop and get the calipers.

[jay.sharkbait]

Looks like 50-70 rimfire

[RadSav]

That is not a belted rimfire.  Looks more like a crimp to hold a primer cup internally.  I think it used to be called the "Benet' inside primer"  They stopped using that primer system in June 1882 according to my book so that's pretty cool!  That might be from the last run made with out the external primer.  My guess would be .45-70.  But I'm not seeing the large difference in bullet diameter in the pictures   Could be a first run of .45-70-500 which would have been loaded at about the same time.  I'd bet not many of those were loaded with the Benet primer.

The smaller one you say might be some sort of .22 doesn't look much different than the cast .25-35.  Makes me think the .25-35 might really be a .22 Hi-Power with a lot of oxidation.  Is it stamped as .25-35?  As with the larger round I think the lead oxidation might be misleading.  At least in the pictures.  A set of calipers could sure help eliminate a lot of ideas.

[Knocker of rocks]

  A set of calipers could sure help eliminate a lot of ideas.

This is the internet.  The last thing we need or want is quantitative data

[mrolen]

  A set of calipers could sure help eliminate a lot of ideas.

This is the internet.  The last thing we need or want is quantitative data

 

[RadSav]

  A set of calipers could sure help eliminate a lot of ideas.

This is the internet.  The last thing we need or want is quantitative data

I know...I'm 

[Sportfury]

That is not a belted rimfire.  Looks more like a crimp to hold a primer cup internally.  I think it used to be called the "Benet' inside primer"  They stopped using that primer system in June 1882 according to my book so that's pretty cool!  That might be from the last run made with out the external primer.  My guess would be .45-70.  But I'm not seeing the large difference in bullet diameter in the pictures   Could be a first run of .45-70-500 which would have been loaded at about the same time.  I'd bet not many of those were loaded with the Benet primer.

The smaller one you say might be some sort of .22 doesn't look much different than the cast .25-35.  Makes me think the .25-35 might really be a .22 Hi-Power with a lot of oxidation.  Is it stamped as .25-35?  As with the larger round I think the lead oxidation might be misleading.  At least in the pictures.  A set of calipers could sure help eliminate a lot of ideas.

Thanks Radsav. Yes the .25-35 is stamped as that. The .22 case is straight from the base to the shoulder where the .25 is sloped to the shoulder.

If I don't go to the pheasant fields in the morning I will take them out to the shop in the morning and get some quantitative data.

[RadSav]

Yes the .25-35 is stamped as that. The .22 case is straight from the base to the shoulder where the .25 is sloped to the shoulder.

You mean more like a 243 case instead of a 250-3000 case?  I had thought 243 at first, but the neck seemed way too short.
Maybe real odd ball like the .224 Win/Springfield or 5.7x45

[Sportfury]

Yes similar to to a .243, but it is bigger than a .223. I will have to take some pictures next to those two cartridges and post them up. Looks like I will be home in the morning.