Interesting article

[AspenBud]

Mostly more of the same old same old from both sides. This did jump out at me however...

"So elk numbers have declined in some parts of the state. But are wolves really to blame? Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks is conducting a study in the Bitterroot Valley, near the Montana-Idaho border, to find out. The project got a lot of funding from area sportsmen who want to know what's killing the area's elk.

Field biologist Ben Jimenez studies elk carcasses to see what kind of animal killed them. It’s kind of like wildlife CSI. Last spring, he and other scientists placed radio-transmitting tags in the ears of 84 elk calves. Each tag sends a different radio signal that Jimenez tunes into. The signal gets faster if an animal dies, and when that happens, Jimenez heads out to find it.

So far, the study has found that mountain lions are the primary killers of elk; bears come second; and wolves are a distant third. Still, the debate rages on."

Anyone know anything about this study?

http://apps.npr.org/wolves/

[Curly]

I wonder if wolves are not actually what kills the elk, if they make it easier for the other predators to make kills.  You know, maybe the elk are getting pressured by the wolves, and thus are more vulnerable for getting killed by cougars or bears?    So, even if the actual kill was done by cougars, are wolves having an impact?

Just wondering.  I haven't even taken a look at that study yet.

[bobcat]

Maybe the WDFW will be forced to allow hound hunting for cougars again, and baiting for bears, in order to save more elk for the wolves. Couldn't have those wolves starving to death. After all, they are endangered.   

[Houndhunter]

How many lion kills are stolen by wolves? Thus causing lions to kill more elk, but the reason being is caused by wolves.....

[headshot5]

I am going to go out on a limb here and make a completely unscientific WAG.  Based completely off of what I conjecture happens.   

This study found that cats killed a majority of the elk calves.  My guess is because cats are ambush predators and generally solitary, or in small groups 1-3 they probably have their pick of which animal they ambush.  So I theorize that cats target the younger animals for the ease of dispatching them, without worrying about collateral damage (getting stomped, horned, maimed etc.), and because they are easier to take down by one cat.
 
Meanwhile, wolves are not quite as picky they take the first animal they can overwhelm.  Since they are in larger groups they don’t focus solely on the younger animals and are quite capable of taking down full size elk.  (I base this reasoning off of wolves taking down moose efficiently thus an elk would be childs play for them).  I really have not heard of cats preying on moose except on rare occasions.  Which tells me they (cats) profile their prey based on size, and ease of killing.  So the study found exactly what I would expect.

I bet if you did a similar study using full sized (adult) elk you would find that it went the other way.  I theorize wolves would kill more full grown elk than cats.

[AspenBud]

I am going to go out on a limb here and make a completely unscientific WAG.  Based completely off of what I conjecture happens.   

This study found that cats killed a majority of the elk calves.  My guess is because cats are ambush predators and generally solitary, or in small groups 1-3 they probably have their pick of which animal they ambush.  So I theorize that cats target the younger animals for the ease of dispatching them, without worrying about collateral damage (getting stomped, horned, maimed etc.), and because they are easier to take down by one cat.
 
Meanwhile, wolves are not quite as picky they take the first animal they can overwhelm.  Since they are in larger groups they don’t focus solely on the younger animals and are quite capable of taking down full size elk.  (I base this reasoning off of wolves taking down moose efficiently thus an elk would be childs play for them).  I really have not heard of cats preying on moose except on rare occasions.  Which tells me they (cats) profile their prey based on size, and ease of killing.  So the study found exactly what I would expect.

I bet if you did a similar study using full sized (adult) elk you would find that it went the other way.  I theorize wolves would kill more full grown elk than cats.

That's probably not a bad theory, especially considering they say that 80% of attempts at bringing down elk by wolves is a failure, which most likely means they are going for adults a lot of the time.

[bearpaw]

There is a new study out about cats in western Montana and they found out they have 2 to 4 times as many cats as they thought they did, just as hunters have been trying to tell them. There is a link on this forum about that study.

MFWP has been under harvesting cats just as WDFW has been under harvesting cats. As much as I like to see good numbers of cats I realize they are detrimental in excessive numbers.

One thing that people tend to overlook is that predation levels by various predators on various prey vary from region to region, the results of a study in one area may not hold completely true for another area.

But simple math tells us where the elk, deer, and moose are going. Most of the large predators depend on one type of ungulate or another for the bulk of their prey.

Documented fact, cougars eat 25-50 deer per year (in some areas this will vary as cats may be eating more elk or some other prey). Documented fact, wolves on the average eat 17 elk or 44 deer per year (in some areas this will vary as wolves may be eating more moose or some other prey). Plus bear take a percentage that varies by region as do other predators. But the bottom line is that there are too many predators.

[Special T]

I think what it shows is that there are TO MANY PREDATORS! We can point the finger and any one of the groups, HOWEVER Elk numbers did not decline rapidly until wolves were introduced to the mix. IF you are OK with very few elk/deer then we can have lots of predators. IF you want to maximize all game then you need to manage ALL predators... Bear and cougars were managed effectively before the onset of introduced wolves... It would stand to reason that since the dynamic has changed with the introduction of wolves and the lack of aggressive management then numbers would decline.

A question that i don't have the answer to is this. Are there less people hunting cats today because of wolves? Obviously it makes it harder/ more dangerous to hunt them in close proximity to known wolf packs... This may only pertain to MT, ID, and WY because we cant run hounds, but...

[Curly]

That is a good question, ST..........and I'd bet that the answer is yes.  Why risk getting your hounds killed by wolves?  I think if I had hounds I'd be very wary of running them in areas with lots of wolves.......

 

[WA hunter14]

How do we know its not total bs and they are pro wolf? Couldn't these scientist just lie about what killed an animal? How do we know that 50 of those "mountain lion" kills weren't wolf kills? Are their pictures of these kills and specific wounds on these kills? And aside from that they really should do a study of elk not elk calves, if they know the estimated percentage of elk that are calves,adolescent,adult,elderly(old enough to be going downhill physically) .than they should do a study on them equally or if they dont than they should figure it out. example if 15% of elk are calves, 30% are adolescent, 40% are adult, and 15% are elderly than they would collar 100 elk 15 calves, 30 adolescent, 40 adult, 15 elderly and do the study on them not just calves that seems ridiculous.

[vandeman17]

Another thing I want to add is that I have heard that some wolves are thrill killers. Who's to say that some of the kills that "appear" to be cougar or bear kills weren't wolf kills where they killed the calf, maybe ate a little and bounced? If a bear comes in and tears it up and feeds on the carcass would it not appear to be a bear kill? I also agree that to get an accurate depiction of what is killing the elk, they need to do a study of calves and adults. I would bet a cougar is much less likely to attack an full grown cow versus a calf but a pack of wolves can take down pretty much anything they want.

[KFhunter]

ALL wolves are thrill killers. 


If a pack of wolves caught a small herd of Elk in crusty snow where they couldn't move they'd kill or wound each and every one of them.

[JLS]

I think what it shows is that there are TO MANY PREDATORS! We can point the finger and any one of the groups, HOWEVER Elk numbers did not decline rapidly until wolves were introduced to the mix. IF you are OK with very few elk/deer then we can have lots of predators. IF you want to maximize all game then you need to manage ALL predators... Bear and cougars were managed effectively before the onset of introduced wolves... It would stand to reason that since the dynamic has changed with the introduction of wolves and the lack of aggressive management then numbers would decline.

A question that i don't have the answer to is this. Are there less people hunting cats today because of wolves? Obviously it makes it harder/ more dangerous to hunt them in close proximity to known wolf packs... This may only pertain to MT, ID, and WY because we cant run hounds, but...

The elk numbers in the Bitterroot also mysteriously tanked at the same time that a slew of 2nd anterless elk tags were being issued, along with a general anterless season.

Also, much of western Montana is a permit only on lions (at the request of houndsman and outfitters) to create a trophy area for cats.

[stevemiller]

WOW  , at the risk of losing deer and elk.