Are these claw marks or buck rubs?

[kirkthoma]

Hello all-

New to the forum, and have a question about rubs in my hunting area.  I have seen a lot of good info on here and thought I would run these pictures by those with more experience than me.  In the area where I am hunting, I have seen a lot of rubs on large alders (up to 10") that are too low to be elk.  Some of the rubs look a little "clawy" and I am wondering if they are all deer, or something else.  I have some decent bucks on my trail cam, so I'm not sure to what extent they can rub.  I have also found one spot where there was buried cat crap (although not by any marked trees).  First pic "Big Buck Rub" is a large rub on an 10-12" tree, with my 5&7 yr old boys standing next to it for scale.  Second pic "Long Marks" is what I think is a buck rub, but has much longer vertical marks (same size tree). Third pic "Claw Marks" is the one that has me thinking.  It looks as if it was clawed rather than rubbed.  I have seen several other trees like this one, but have mostly focused on the known buck rubs (and there's a lot in there.... )

Looking forward to input on Pic 3 (as well as the other pics if I'm wrong on the buck rubs)....

Thanks!

[kirkthoma]

Looks like blacktail rubs on those alders. Remember they are rubbing their foreheads to transfer scent so the primary markings are caused by the brow tines and trash around the bases. The outer scars that look like claw marks are the main beam and g2, g3 times. You can also guess the width and main beam length by the cuts left on the backside of the tree, helps to gauge the reach of the rack. Nothing is ever 100% but I would wager by the pics and the trees/habitat those are blacktail rubs.

Thanks for the reply.  That was kind of what I was thinking.  However, the last pic threw me off a bit.  I've seen several trees in there with the same type of marks, maybe its a buck who rubs a certain way....  Here's a couple of the larger bucks I have on the game cam....

[notellumcreek]

I would put my money on blacktail rubs. Claw marks are pretty thin and will have 4 parallel lines from each swipe of the paw, at least they are easy to tell when there aren't too many claw marks on top of each other. I have seen some thicker marks on trees from a bear climbing it, but again they are all parallel and it was easy to tell when they went up 20ft on the tree.

[ElaphusElatus]

I'd say neither.  Nearly all of the alders and young Doug-fir on my property look like that and it is from cow elk scraping the tree with their incisors and canines.  I've watched them do it, and it does not help if I chase them away, they just come back another time.  I'd bet many, many people mistake cow elk scrapes for buck or bull rubs.

[kirkthoma]

I'd say neither.  Nearly all of the alders and young Doug-fir on my property look like that and it is from cow elk scraping the tree with their incisors and canines.  I've watched them do it, and it does not help if I chase them away, they just come back another time.  I'd bet many, many people mistake cow elk scrapes for buck or bull rubs.

I never thought of that.  There is elk in the area. Regarding the cow bite marks: Are you referring to the 3rd one or all 3 marks?

[billythekidrock]

Pic one an two look like bt rubs to me.

[Damnimissed]

Tell me where the marks in question are, and I'll go investigate for you! 

[mtncook]

Elk do not have canine teeth or incisors.  Both of which are referenced to teeth of the upper.

mtncook

[kirkthoma]

Tell me where the marks in question are, and I'll go investigate for you! 

Just north of Notellum Ridge....

[IBspoiled]

Big foot for sure

[TheHunt]

Yep BigFoot.  Those are Bigfoot hemorrhoid marks.  He has to itch it someplace.

[kirkthoma]

Yep BigFoot.  Those are Bigfoot hemorrhoid marks.  He has to itch it someplace.

Maybe I'll spread some Preparation H on those marks and head out there with the FoxPro... 

[dscubame]

Check with Dan-O.  He is the resident Big Foot specialist and is licensed to certify Big Foot sightings.

[REHJWA]

Buck. But I would also bet he is not one of those you have on camera. Those in the first two pictures look like they were made by eye guards. Also doubt its elk due to the height of the marks.

[billythekidrock]

Buck. But I would also bet he is not one of those you have on camera. Those in the first two pictures look like they were made by eye guards. Also doubt its elk due to the height of the marks.

 

[hunter399]

The first two do look like rubs that, pic 3 hard to tell they do look really deep in there, if it was a deer most be something big. but just guessing 

[kirkthoma]

Buck. But I would also bet he is not one of those you have on camera. Those in the first two pictures look like they were made by eye guards. Also doubt its elk due to the height of the marks.

Maybe it's this guy on the first two? (See pic below)  I can't tell for sure but he seems to have eye guard's.  I have a hard time telling the difference between bucks, and have been debating with myself if he's the same deer as the above 3 pt.  Been soaking up a lot of info since getting back into hunting last year.  I didn't put my camera up until I shot a smallish forky in this area.  Then I saw what I should have held out for. Oh well, my 6 yr old son was with me, and it was nice shooting a buck while still-hunting with him....

[kirkthoma]

The first two do look like rubs that, pic 3 hard to tell they do look really deep in there, if it was a deer most be something big. but just guessing 

I agree.  They are deep and don't have any side marks like rubs often do.  Almost like incisions.  That's what got me wondering (and checking my back trail often) 

[_TONY_]

There's an old skid road in an area that I hunt that has every single tree with marks like that last one.... I'm talking like at least 50+ trees in a couple hundred yards... Almost all of them are to high up to be BT...

[UrbanTrapper]

Look for the shavings still on the tree.  Claw marks can only leave shavings at the bottom of the 'rub' because the animals are always pulling down, but a buck rubs up and down so there could be shavings at the top also. Attached is a picture of a bobcat scratch post.

[Brute]

Elk do not have canine teeth or incisors.  Both of which are referenced to teeth of the upper.

mtncook

Elk have ivories and will scrape - gouge a tree with them.

[ElaphusElatus]

kirkthoma - Here are rubs caused by cow and calf elk.  I watched them do it.  Note all heights, and all the way down to the wood.  They get fixated on rubbing, maybe they are just bored.  Compare them to yours.

[kirkthoma]

Very interesting.  I would never have guessed those were done by cow/calf.  They do look similar to other marks I have seen on trees in that area (that aren't buck rubs).  I will look at them a little more next time I check my trail cam.