Hoof Rot Town hall in Cowlitz Co.

[bowbuild]

First....you must deal with the right agency...for chemicals the department of Agriculture is the one to deal with, not the game department....sure they can give their opinion, but these are separate agencies.

A LOT of you that believe that the chemicals used are the "core" cause most likely use the same, and or, similar chemicals in your yards.....and you think nothing of it......you ever see the state spraying ditches, and right of ways with herbicides? Have you ever considered that these chemicals are washed from those ditches to river systems?? Be carefull at whom you point your fingers at, because many of you are doing the same in smaller quantities, BUT when several home owners in a block, and the next block..ect. add up to a lot of herbicides, fertilizers, pesticides that we all use. Just because it says Miracle grow....only means the miracle is in the synthetic fertilizer in the product.

Ironic that (some) people that support timber company land rights to charge access for hunters would take (or want to) take away their right to manage their lands as they see fit within the law....with no proof, only a presumed POSSIBLE reason for hoof rot.....laughable, unprovable at this point.....although I am open to a fact finding. I for the record believe they have the right to charge access, but disagree with it fully.

Bowbuild

[Curly]

They have the right to charge for access but they should have increased taxes because of it.  End

[pianoman9701]

First....you must deal with the right agency...for chemicals the department of Agriculture is the one to deal with, not the game department....sure they can give their opinion, but these are separate agencies.

A LOT of you that believe that the chemicals used are the "core" cause most likely use the same, and or, similar chemicals in your yards.....and you think nothing of it......you ever see the state spraying ditches, and right of ways with herbicides? Have you ever considered that these chemicals are washed from those ditches to river systems?? Be carefull at whom you point your fingers at, because many of you are doing the same in smaller quantities, BUT when several home owners in a block, and the next block..ect. add up to a lot of herbicides, fertilizers, pesticides that we all use. Just because it says Miracle grow....only means the miracle is in the synthetic fertilizer in the product.

Ironic that (some) people that support timber company land rights to charge access for hunters would take (or want to) take away their right to manage their lands as they see fit within the law....with no proof, only a presumed POSSIBLE reason for hoof rot.....laughable, unprovable at this point.....although I am open to a fact finding. I for the record believe they have the right to charge access, but disagree with it fully.

Bowbuild

If a landowner does something on his property which is proven to negatively effect wildlife, he's liable to the state for damages. The wildlife belongs to the people, regardless of whose land it's on. You're absolutely correct that nothing's been proven...yet.

[Curly]

Sorry I'm not used to this phone yet.  What I was trying to say is that your analogy about homeowners using herbicides is not really applicable. Homeowners are not spraying tens and hundreds of acres where deer and elk feed not to mention other animals.

[pianoman9701]

Sorry I'm not used to this phone yet.  What I was trying to say is that your analogy about homeowners using herbicides is not really applicable. Homeowners are not spraying tens and hundreds of acres where deer and elk feed not to mention other animals.

[Curly]

 also, Department of Natural Resources is the one responsible for administering the rules regarding timber practices . They could put a stop to spraying if there is data to support eliminating spraying.

[bobcat]

Of course nothing has been proven in regards to the effects that herbicide use on forest lands might have on wildlife- nobody has studied the issue.

As for which agency would be responsible, who knows? Why would it be Agriculture? More likely I would think possibly the Department of Natural Resources since they enforce forest practice laws. Or perhaps Ecology since they are in charge of protecting our environment.

However, I would think the WDFW would be most concerned about the effects of these chemicals have on all of the state's fish and wildlife. Why couldn't they take the lead in studying this issue and if it is proven to be detrimental to our fish and wildlife, put an end to it!

[Bob33]

I don't believe WDFW has sufficient resources to adequately study the use of herbicides. They've had a hard enough time getting resources to study hoof rot.

If herbicides are such a problem why aren't these symptoms being seen in other states? If they are, then perhaps a federal study should be done.

[bobcat]

Why not Ecology then? They have a lot of money it seems. This is their mission statement: 

Our Mission
The Mission of the Department of Ecology is to protect, preserve and enhance Washington’s environment, and promote the wise management of our air, land and water for the benefit of current and future generations.

Our Goals
Prevent pollution.
Clean up pollution.
Support sustainable communities, and natural resources.

[bowbuild]

Sorry I'm not used to this phone yet.  What I was trying to say is that your analogy about homeowners using herbicides is not really applicable. Homeowners are not spraying tens and hundreds of acres where deer and elk feed not to mention other animals.

Well, I respectfully disagree.......as a licensed applicator running my own business I think I know a little about herbicides, and pesticides. You are flat wrong about the DNR.....THEY MAY... give permits, but ALL pesticides, and herbicides are controlled by the department of AG....that is a fact...not the DNR.

As far as home owners as a general point of conversation......home owners are NOT controlled on home pesticides, and or herbicides are used on their properties.....you could literally go store to store with no questions asked....buy as much fertilizer, herbicides, pesticides and apply them without question......unless you overapply,(which happens a lot) and it's brought to the states attention.....and rarely does this happen. I personally would like to see all pesticides herbicides have a day course requirement to show average citizen how, what, and where you can apply....as in out supersize society MORE is better.

As a Applicator I have to account for everything I use, keep records of it for YRS. and the state can pull my paperwork at anytime....so I think I know a little about this subject....as I deal with it on a daily basis.

Now I suspect that this is going to be similar to the slip we have around here as well as chronic wasting in other states. My guess, and it is only a guess is it is due to non-native species goats, horses, sheep ect. that somehow conntract this disease, and because elk like pasture lands they contracted it there.

As to herbicide use....if enough herbicide is use in a given area whether that be winter range, or summer the food source could be depleted, and once again like humans you will find elk at the grocery store....your local pasture lands. The game department with studies should know the elks migration routes, where they feed and when. I think the herbicide use should coincide not to deplentish where and when elk tend to feed, and most importantly try to insure when the elk arrive it is not a foliage dessert.

Bowbuild

[Curly]

Come on man.  Homeowners spraying stuff on their lot is no way close to when a 320 acre clear cut gets sprayed from the air.  When a timber company or DNR sprays their clearcut, it makes that vast area no good for feed for the animals.  Homeowners aren't going to kill enough weeds to impact deer or elk populations.

I believe you about the dept of Agriculture, but DNR and DOE also have roles in this issue.  DOE enforces laws in the Clean Air act and laws about water.  DNR enforces forest practice laws. 

I bought several 5 gallon jugs of Weedmaster from Dels a few years ago and I had to fill out some paperwork and Dept of Ag keeps contacting me asking me all kinds of questions.  I just bought the large quantity because it was a great sale and I knew I would use it over the years and I doubted it would ever go down in price. 

I'm glad we have an expert in herbicides on this board.  Sounds like you could write to WDFW, dept of Ag, DOE and DNR and you should have a better chance of them listening to you with your credentials than an average hunter without your training. 

[pianoman9701]

Well, at least we know what skin you have in the game, BB. I don't think anyone disagrees that homeowners using pesticides isn't good for the Earth. However, spraying entire tracts of wildlife habitat with herbicide and pesticides, were there a choice only between timberland spraying and homeowner application, would be a much more likely cause of something effecting our wildlife. Of course, without knowing any real answers, it could be an invasive beetle they're eating, or as you suggest, contact with domestic livestock (although that would show up in other areas, too). Ignorance and speculation can be dangerous, especially when that speculation is pointed at someone's way of life, like yours.

[bobcat]

Okay, so one more agency to throw into the mix. I read their mission statement and still have my doubts as to whether they would have anything to do with the health of deer or elk, but maybe...

From their website:

About WSDA
The Washington State Department of Agriculture (WSDA) is headquartered in Olympia, with employees in every county in the state. Our staff carries out a broad spectrum of activities that support the producers, distributors, and consumers of Washington's food and agricultural products.

The Washington State Department of Agriculture serves the people of Washington by supporting the agricultural community and promoting consumer and environmental protection.
Our Major Goals:

Protect and reduce the risk to public health by assuring the safety of the state's food supply.
Ensure the safe and legal distribution, use, and disposal of pesticides and fertilizers in Washington State.
Protect Washington State's natural resources, agriculture industry, and the public from selected plant and animal pests and diseases.
Facilitate the movement of Washington agricultural products in domestic and international markets.

[Bob33]

If someone could just find a dead wolf that died from herbicides, or a spotted owl, then the problem is solved.

[bobcat]

If someone could just find a dead wolf that died from herbicides, or a spotted owl, then the problem is solved.

True! Or, one more option- an endangered salmon or steelhead. That works too.


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