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Author Topic: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”  (Read 240333 times)

Offline wolfbait

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #240 on: April 09, 2014, 01:32:25 PM »
Convention on Biological Diversity: Set aside half the land in America for animals
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/the-un-wildlands-projecttaking-over-america-starting-with-florida

Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #241 on: April 09, 2014, 02:22:39 PM »
Convention on Biological Diversity: Set aside half the land in America for animals
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/the-un-wildlands-projecttaking-over-america-starting-with-florida
Agenda 21 conspiracy theorists are wildly misinformed.  Do you just post any old thing that you come across online???   The article is written by a guy that works for a pesticide manufacturer... ?

http://www.cbd.int/sp/targets

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #242 on: April 09, 2014, 02:27:46 PM »
We'll see what happens in Thurston and Pierce Co.s now that it looks like several residents are going to be put on the ESA. I dare say that those of you who find the ESA flawless would change your tune if you bought land to develop and then couldn't. This is real and happening in a town near you.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman https://linktr.ee/johnlwallace https://valoaneducator.tv/johnwallace-2014743

Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #243 on: April 09, 2014, 02:30:32 PM »
There are ways to mitigate developments to account for ESA regulations.  My apologies for not feeling sorry for a developer... They NEVER pay the real cost of their developments. 

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #244 on: April 09, 2014, 02:36:52 PM »
There are ways to mitigate developments to account for ESA regulations.  My apologies for not feeling sorry for a developer... They NEVER pay the real cost of their developments.

When I said develop their land, I'm talking about any citizen who owns a patch of land on which they intend to build. I wasn't talking about building neighborhoods, although we need those, too. Where the heck do you live, anyway, in a tree? You certainly are showing your colors. Anyone who builds developments is bad. Got it. Anyone who owns land and feels screwed when they can't build on it is just SOL and should be. Got it.  Wow!
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman https://linktr.ee/johnlwallace https://valoaneducator.tv/johnwallace-2014743

Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #245 on: April 09, 2014, 02:54:10 PM »
There are ways to mitigate developments to account for ESA regulations.  My apologies for not feeling sorry for a developer... They NEVER pay the real cost of their developments.

When I said develop their land, I'm talking about any citizen who owns a patch of land on which they intend to build. I wasn't talking about building neighborhoods, although we need those, too. Where the heck do you live, anyway, in a tree? You certainly are showing your colors. Anyone who builds developments is bad. Got it. Anyone who owns land and feels screwed when they can't build on it is just SOL and should be. Got it.  Wow!
hahaha- I guess I don't remember saying those things, but you're always welcome to accuse me of being a treehugger... :) 

I live in a county with 12k people... where developers often buy a big section of timber or farm land and break it into a sub-development, log the $hit out of it, then sell the lots and get out of the area with a pocketful of money.  Most of us here in Pend Oreille County want the place to maintain a rural feel.  I don't care to see our community chopped into small lots and homes.  We have a 10 or 20 acre division rule and I think that's about right to keep it rural. 

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #246 on: April 09, 2014, 03:07:49 PM »
My response was brash and had a sharp edge to it, and I apologize, WAcoyotehunter. I'm sure Pierce Co. was also rural at some point and the people there didn't want any more to move in either. All due respects, I just that I find that argument, whenever I hear it and from whomever I hear, to be fairly hypocritical. It's like someone in Seattle saying to someone in Colville, "the wolves lived there before you did." They lived in Seattle too at one time. That doesn't mean that they belong at Pike's Market.

We need developments (even though I was only talking about a single person/family developing their own land). You may not like where they go because the area was once wild and open. But unless you own the land, that's not your decision. And apparently, even owning the land doesn't make it your decision.

There are animals which should go extinct (gasp from the crowd). Some would do so without the help of man and will eventually anyway. Whether they have an inability to adapt to changing natural conditions, such as the dusky Canada goose, or because there were just discovered in the middle of Tacoma yesterday and there are 4 of a certain toad remaining, there has to be some reason in making decisions which affect our society. Currently, I see little reason being used with regards to animals included in the ESA.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 05:47:18 AM by pianoman9701 »
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman https://linktr.ee/johnlwallace https://valoaneducator.tv/johnwallace-2014743

Offline Special T

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #247 on: April 09, 2014, 04:09:14 PM »
OK.... So you disagree with a "State level" ESA.... Is that what I am hearing?  So are you arguing that a species that is doing OK in one state should not be protected in another?  I guess i see the point about actual extinction, rather than localized extirpation.  But the problem with that is genetic variations.... Like the cougar in FL.... just because we have lots of them, they should still be listed and protected in FL.  Just because MT has lots of sage grouse, they should be protected in WA.  they are in trouble here and need some help recovering. 

One of my personal pet peeves is when  a set of rules ONLY apply when it benefits ones side... EITHER a wolf is a wolf and they are all the same from Canada to Mexico, or they are not.... IF they are all the same then there are PLENTY of wolves in Canada and was no reason to bring them back here. IF they are NOT all the same then Bringing wolves FROM the McKenzie valley in Canada and calling them indigenous is wrong.
In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself. 

Confucius

Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #248 on: April 09, 2014, 04:28:48 PM »
OK.... So you disagree with a "State level" ESA.... Is that what I am hearing?  So are you arguing that a species that is doing OK in one state should not be protected in another?  I guess i see the point about actual extinction, rather than localized extirpation.  But the problem with that is genetic variations.... Like the cougar in FL.... just because we have lots of them, they should still be listed and protected in FL.  Just because MT has lots of sage grouse, they should be protected in WA.  they are in trouble here and need some help recovering. 

One of my personal pet peeves is when  a set of rules ONLY apply when it benefits ones side... EITHER a wolf is a wolf and they are all the same from Canada to Mexico, or they are not.... IF they are all the same then there are PLENTY of wolves in Canada and was no reason to bring them back here. IF they are NOT all the same then Bringing wolves FROM the McKenzie valley in Canada and calling them indigenous is wrong.

Well not necessarily... There are VERY clear differences in the Eastern wolf and the Timber wolf... to say that a "wolf is a wolf" would clearly be a mistake in that case... similar to saying "a dog is a dog"....

I do not know the difference, or if there is one, in the Yellowstone wolves (the ones reportedly there before reintroduction) and the McKenzie river wolves.  Obviously there is all the controversy surround the """ILLEGAL CANADIAN GRAY WOLVES!!!"""  but there is not much hard factual information about the wolves that were there.  If there were so many wolves still in Yellowstone, that are now gone due to this "new" wolf- then there must be some museum specimen, some taxidermy collection, anthropological specimen....something to substantiate the claims that the "new" wolf is a different creature all together...  Does that make sense?

I don't have that answer.  Obviously Bergman's law would apply and an animal from a colder climate would be larger, but who knows how they respond behaviorally compared to wolves that were here in the past??

 


Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Offline Special T

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #250 on: April 09, 2014, 04:59:18 PM »
As far as "Illegal Canadian wolves"  the YNP  population was done legally to my best knowledge but sold as an "experimental population".
The Wolves brought into ID never got the proper permitts so It would be proper to say that  those were illegal... Hard to discern which are which now... May I see your Papers Big Bad Wolf?  :chuckle:

The WDFW knew there were wolves in WA in the 90's because they closed coyote hunting in the Psyden wilderness...  I personally have a hard time Believing what the WDFW or USFS spouts, mostly because they choose to ignore facts that don't fall into their narrative. I have friends who have attempted to be helpful with information, pictures and evidence of wolves in WA. All they have received in return is condescension, and arrogance... Unfortunately it is NOT limited to just wolves. The same treatment was received by people giving information on grizzly bears and spotted owls.  What I find so abhorant is the fact that Washington state citizens that do some leg work and actually provide some evidence, not just hearsay, are treated like children who have an axe to grind, yet organizations like DoW Are Viewed as a partner.

You and Me MAY disagree on some of each others points, and that is OK with me. It is the ACTIONS or lack of them by our WDFW and USFS That show me what they are up to. They can tell me what every they want but that doesn't mean they have those same intentions.
In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself. 

Confucius

Offline wolfbait

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #251 on: April 09, 2014, 08:26:25 PM »
People and Predation

by Rex Dalton

The biocentric eco-activists who seek the removal of industrial civilization from North America consider human life just another link in the food chain.

"Biocentrism," the ideology that inspired the Wildlands Project, holds that humanity is just one species in a democratic "biosphere." From this perspective, humans who choose to live within the habitat of a protected non-human species are interlopers. This is why Wildlands fanatics - in addition to shutting down economic development, private land ownership, and recreational use of "re-wilded" lands - seek to "re-colonize" those lands with non-human species. This process is presently underway within the proposed Yellowstone-to-Yukon (Y2Y) "bioregion." (For the background on the Wildlands Project and Y2Y, see the article on page 17.)

"Already, transplanted wolves from [British Columbia's Muskwa-Kechika] region formed the foundation of Yellowstone's successful lobo transplantation program," reported the Christian Science Monitor. "Thriving Canadian lynx and wolverine populations could also be tapped for augmentation. And [last] November, the US Fish and Wildlife Service [FWS], in conjunction with a plan by Defenders of Wildlife and the National Wildlife Federation, announced that in 2002 Canadian grizzly bears will be relocated to the Selway-Bitterroot wilderness of Montana and Idaho."

Animals like the grizzly, lynx, and wolf are what Wildlands co-architect Reed Noss calls "flagships" - "charismatic species that serve as popular symbols for conservation." Wildlands propaganda abounds in poignant pleas on behalf of threatened "flagship" species and invocations of the duty to preserve such animals "for our children." Such media-friendly mantras are used to conceal the vicious misanthropy that animates the Wildlands Project. As Wildlands activist John Davis stresses, "in the long run all lands and waters should be left to the whims of Nature, not to the selfish desires of one species which chose for itself the misnomer Homo Sapiens."

According to Wildlands-linked activists on the Canadian side of the Y2Y zone, human beings across most of the western half of North America may have to be shoved aside to make room for grizzlies. British Columbia's Grizzly Bear Conservation Strategy, which was published in 1995 and remains the basis for the province's protected areas policy, employs the "charismatic species" concept by insisting that "nothing is a better measure of our success in maintaining biodiversity than the survival of this species."

Apparently, "recovery" of the grizzlies will require ample Lebensraum, since "over its lifetime, a single grizzly bear will require a home range between 50 and 100 square kilometers, and - in some cases - up to thousands of square kilometers." Within "grizzly bear management areas," continues the document, human activities "that are not compatible with grizzly bears [will be] carefully controlled or not allowed."

The Wildlands Project mission statement speaks of a day in which "Grizzlies in Chihuahua have an unbroken connection to Grizzlies in Alaska...." British Columbia's provincial Grizzly Bear Conservation Strategy reflects that same vision by describing the historical range of the North American grizzly as encompassing "the western half of North America from the Arctic to central Mexico" - thereby conjuring up the decidedly improbable image of grizzlies frolicking on the slopes of Popocatepetl (see map) [map not present in web version -AMPP Ed.].

"Zone of Imminent Danger"

The case of Montana rancher John Shuler, who was fined $7,000 by the FWS for killing a grizzly that had attacked his sheep and threatened his home, illustrates that in conflicts between humans and non-human predators within protected areas, it is the predator that will be given the benefit of the doubt. When Shuler appealed the FWS fine, a federal administrative law judge ruled that when he had sought to protect his property he had "purposefully place[d] himself in the zone of imminent danger of a bear attack" and fined the rancher an additional $4,000.

Wildlands activists seeking to recover large predators throughout the mountainous West are placing landowners across the region in the "zone of imminent danger" by design. According to one supporter of re-wilding Western lands, the introduction of large predators like grizzly bears and wolves is to "bring back another element that has been vanishing from the Western back country. That ingredient is fear. Wolves [and similar large predators] are killers.... People will think twice before traipsing into the back country."

According to Wildlands Project board president Harvey Locke, "helping large carnivores recolonize parts of their former range" is a major aim of the re-wilding process, since the effort would "preserve or restore species at the top of the food chain." This would come as news to those people in the areas slated for re-wilding, who may have assumed that humans are the "species at the top of the food chain." Difficult though it may be for rational people to understand, many biocentric radicals consider ecologically "unenlightened" humans to be little more than a source of protein for non-human predators.

In July 1997, a female cougar killed a 10-year-old in Colorado's Rocky Mountain Park. Rangers tracked the animal down and killed it, prompting voluble protests from several biocentric fanatics. "The female lion represented the future of her species, which I believe has an equal right to exist on this planet," wrote environmental activist Gary Lane in a letter to the editor of a local paper. "The lioness deserved better treatment from the rangers." The cougar's destruction also angered Sherrie Tippie of Wildlife 2000, a Denver-based biocentric group, who complained that "the only species we have too many of is the human one. I am very concerned about the influx of people into our state who are not educated about our wildlife."

In 1990, California voters approved Proposition 117, a measure banning the sport hunting of mountain lions. In predictable fashion, the cougar population exploded, ravaging food sources and driving the starving carnivores into human population centers in search of sustenance - with lethal consequences for both livestock and human beings.

After a cougar attacked a 10-year-old girl near Los Angeles in September 1993, two park rangers reluctantly dispatched the crazed predator. Other attacks resulted in physical injury to human beings. Finally, in April 1994, a woman named Barbara Schoener was attacked by an 82-pound female cougar. The cat crushed Schoener's skull, then dragged the hapless jogger 300 feet and devoured her face and most of her internal organs. Fish and Game officials hunted the cougar down and killed it, and in doing so provoked the wrath of local biocentrists.

In a letter to the Sacramento Bee, one eco-radical suggested that "this noble creature may well have been venting centuries of mountain-lion anger against the humans who have driven it from its land, destroyed its home, ruthlessly hunted it down, and, as the final indignity, debased it to an advertising device to sell cars." Wayne Pacelle, vice president of the Humane Society, accused those who were outraged by the death of Barbara Schoener of using harmful stereotypes. "The HSUS accepts that individual animals judged to be a threat to people should be removed. But the injurious act of one animal should not provide a license to wreak vengeance on other members of an animal population.We are encroaching on their habitat, and we must respect that they should have a place to live as well." (Emphasis added.)

In late 1995, 56-year-old high school counselor Iris Kenna was attacked and mauled by a 140-pound cougar in Cuyamaca Rancho State Park near San Diego. Commenting on that and other cougar attacks, pollster Michael Manfredo told the January 8, 1996 issue of Newsweek: "There's a value shift about how people view wildlife, a high willingness to accept mountain lions on the urban fringe - even if they kill people." As the Wildlands Project unfolds, cougars, wolves, bears, and other predators will have ample opportunities to test that "value shift."

Some eco-radicals have candidly admitted that one purpose to be served by re-colonizing predators in or near populated areas is to drive recalcitrant humans off the land. Few biocentric radicals have expressed this militant misanthropy as candidly as David Garber, a research biologist with the National Park Service:

Human happiness, and certainly human fecundity, are not as important as a wild and healthy planet. I know social scientists who remind me that people are a part of nature, but that isn't true.... We have become a plague upon ourselves and upon the Earth.... Until such time as Homo Sapiens should decide to rejoin nature, some of us can only hope for the right virus to come along.

 


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from Nature, 2001-May-31 (N.411 P.509)

http://www.klamathbucketbrigade.org/Nature_PeopleandPredation062005.htm

Offline wolfbait

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #252 on: April 09, 2014, 10:28:12 PM »
BREAKING: Feds prep for Waco style raid of Bundy Ranch

BREAKING: Feds prep for Waco style raid of Bundy Ranch

Government plans to euthanize hundreds of desert tortoises after budget cuts to refuge
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/25/government-plans-to-euthanize-hundreds-of-desert-tortoises-after-budget-cuts-to-refuge/

https://www.facebook.com/support.cliven.bundy

Cliven Bundy Hannity. Bundy Ranch Standoff Against The U.S. Government
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=armAcbEO1PE
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 11:00:45 PM by wolfbait »

Offline idahohuntr

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #253 on: April 09, 2014, 10:47:21 PM »
Sad that so many public resources are being wasted on such a tool.  Arrest the guy and throw 'em in the slammer for 10-20...if he is going to be a leach on taxpayers at least he can do some good by making license plates or something.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR

Offline AspenBud

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Re: The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”
« Reply #254 on: April 10, 2014, 07:27:22 AM »
There are animals which should go extinct (gasp from the crowd). Some would do so without the help of man and will eventually anyway. Whether they have an inability to adapt to changing natural conditions, such as the dusky Canada goose, or because there were just discovered in the middle of Tacoma yesterday and there are 4 of a certain toad remaining, there has to be some reason in making decisions which affect our society. Currently, I see little reason being used with regards to animals included in the ESA.

Where do you draw the line? Hypothetically, what if something changed and land owners' practices meant losing elk forever? I think it's a lot easier to make your comment if nothing you're interested in is affected.

 


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