The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”

[buckfvr]

This like most things can be viewed from opposite ends of the spectrum.  Each year I see free range cattle in areas with seemingly no damage.  I also see beautiful creek bottoms reduced to crap and muck holes that no other wildlife use.  They can virtually destroy creek bottoms and overgraze riparian areas.  Cows have a much higher impact on natural areas than do deer, elk, and moose combined.

Just what I see........

[bearpaw]

This like most things can be viewed from opposite ends of the spectrum.  Each year I see free range cattle in areas with seemingly no damage.  I also see beautiful creek bottoms reduced to crap and muck holes that no other wildlife use.  They can virtually destroy creek bottoms and overgraze riparian areas.  Cows have a much higher impact on natural areas than do deer, elk, and moose combined.

Just what I see........

I agree over grazing can get ugly just as anything can that is not done within reason. Grazers on public land should be monitored just as logging operations or oil gas drillers are monitored. But I don't like the idea of saying all grazing should be stopped because of a few bad apples abusing the system.

It's pretty simple. He hasn't paid what he owes, he deserves what he's getting. What, did he think people would feel sorry for him and he'd get to graze his cows forver on public land for free?     Idiot!       

I agree he needs to pay something... This doesn't make a lot of sense to me spending millions because of 1 million in overdue fees. Make a settlement with the guy and save the taxpayers some money. 

I agree.  The feds are a tangled bureaucracy and suck to deal with.  They can make a mess of pretty simple things like leases. 

Their disorganization for the last 2 decades, coupled with his victim mentality caused this mess.  He needs to expect change and deal with it, the Gov needs to make change reasonable and thoughtful.

  completely agree

[idahohuntr]

I agree.  The feds are a tangled bureaucracy and suck to deal with.  They can make a mess of pretty simple things like leases. 

Their disorganization for the last 2 decades, coupled with his victim mentality caused this mess.  He needs to expect change and deal with it, the Gov needs to make change reasonable and thoughtful.

They are very hamstrung when it comes to dealing with contentious issues like this...they can't just solve it like you or I would with private land. 

I occassionaly allow grazing on my land...I would not tolerate 20 years of no payment before I took action...thats partly why I am surprised folks feel the feds are being heavy handed...seems to me like they have been exceptionally tolerant...to a fault. 

[bearpaw]

I agree.  The feds are a tangled bureaucracy and suck to deal with.  They can make a mess of pretty simple things like leases. 

Their disorganization for the last 2 decades, coupled with his victim mentality caused this mess.  He needs to expect change and deal with it, the Gov needs to make change reasonable and thoughtful.

They are very hamstrung when it comes to dealing with contentious issues like this...they can't just solve it like you or I would with private land. 

I occassionaly allow grazing on my land...I would not tolerate 20 years of no payment before I took action...thats partly why I am surprised folks feel the feds are being heavy handed...seems to me like they have been exceptionally tolerant...to a fault.

Not to be argumentative but to explain....

If I had someone who didn't pay for grazing on my land I would contact the owner to come get his cows and tell him I was going to herd the cows off my land at a certain time if he didn't remove them himself so be there to get them. I would not be flying Blackhawk helicopters and posting snipers or hauling his cattle to auction.

However, this is not private land, this is public land where grazing and other activities are needed to support local economies. So this brings us back to my main question in this matter, what happened with the other 52 ranchers who have been eliminated? That is really the bigger issue, this seems to be an elimination of grazing altogether.

[wolfbait]

BLM, USFWS, USFS and WDF&Wolves pick out a few pictures of what cows have done, these could be pictures on private land outside of a barnyard it really doesn't matter to them.  They use these pictures to push and agenda, "Cows are Bad" Wolves balance the ecosystem. Not that simple but most of you can get the idea.

The ESA Tortis

The Pride and Joy of the ESA
Breaking: Feds Allow Calves To Starve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reYHqsfF-j0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Like the Canadian Wolves it is fraud and corruption on the American people!
I would be willing to bet, the people who thought or were brain-washed are getting a new look at the ESA and government control.

How many people now realized they were told lies for years by environmentalist? How many people really think Defenders of Wildlife care about wildlife? or any life at all? The ESA is not about life, it is about driving people off their property using the ESA or regulations.

It's too bad the Bundy family has to go through the fraud and corruption of what use to be a great country, a country that many people died for to defend what is happening today.

In another light, it is a good thing because it shows what is really happening through the ESA, it shines a light on the fraud and corruption of many ESA listed animals, animals used to control water rights, land, and destroy property rights.

[Elkaholic daWg]

Zoning laws apply to everyone equally and are something you're aware of when you purchase land. That's completely different from someone looking for something on someone's private land with which to stop them from doing what they want on it. I realize nothing's going to satisfy you, Aspen, either in this or any of the wolf conversations. I have little doubt you're a card-carrying member of one of the groups which use public taxpayer funds to sue the government. Is it the Defenders to which you belong? Sure sounds like it. A lot.

I see you are as ignorant of zoning laws as you are the Endangered Species Act. 

may god bless you with  mazama pocket gophers. how many alters could humanure have?

[wolfbait]

“It is not about turtles it is about water"
http://beforeitsnews.com/blogging-citizen-journalism/2014/04/breaking-militia-arrives-at-bundy-ranch-2452284.html

[Northway]

BLM, USFWS, USFS and WDF&Wolves pick out a few pictures of what cows have done, these could be pictures on private land outside of a barnyard it really doesn't matter to them.  They use these pictures to push and agenda, "Cows are Bad" Wolves balance the ecosystem. Not that simple but most of you can get the idea.

The ESA Tortis

The Pride and Joy of the ESA
Breaking: Feds Allow Calves To Starve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reYHqsfF-j0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Like the Canadian Wolves it is fraud and corruption on the American people!
I would be willing to bet, the people who thought or were brain-washed are getting a new look at the ESA and government control.

How many people now realized they were told lies for years by environmentalist? How many people really think Defenders of Wildlife care about wildlife? or any life at all? The ESA is not about life, it is about driving people off their property using the ESA or regulations.

It's too bad the Bundy family has to go through the fraud and corruption of what use to be a great country, a country that many people died for to defend what is happening today.

In another light, it is a good thing because it shows what is really happening through the ESA, it shines a light on the fraud and corruption of many ESA listed animals, animals used to control water rights, land, and destroy property rights.

Fraud, corruption, conspiracy..........

Wolfbait, I wonder who the real Americans are in your mind? Based on your criteria, the list would be short. You could make a couple of sweeping statements about individual liberty, patriotism, or the constitution; but ultimately I don't believe that's what you stand for.

How well did a paranoid mindset dominated by thoughts of conspiracy & corruption work out for your friend who ran for governor of Montana? What did he stand for? I heard that by the end of the campaign, not only had they alienated themselves from the vast majority of their own party, they even turned on each other.

What if it were true that the ESA was a Act created to protect some stuff by some thoughtful politicians, and now in some cases the act is being used to push its reach beyond what was originally intended and that some changes should be considered. Would that be too boring for you?

When I'm in a foul mood and feel ready to condemn my neighbor for any number of differences of opinion, I try to reel myself back in and think about a quote I was turned on to by a Hemingway book. I'm no social justice warrior and don't look at it from that angle, but from a standpoint that we all live and vote together, and nothing good can result from writing off everyone around me:

"No man is an island,  entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were;  any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

[wolfbait]

What part is it that you don't like? Is it the ESA being exposed for what it really is? The dishonesty of the "environmentalists" being exposed? The fact that the wolves that were released into the lower 48, were not released because they were endangered? The fact that what is happening now in Nevada is not about a turtle? Maybe everyone who has a problem with being lied to should just be quiet and let smarter people like you explain everything to them.

[wolfbait]

Interesting read.

Militarized Siege Of Bundy Ranch IS All About Oil Fracking Deals
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/04/militarized-siege-of-bundy-ranch-is-all-about-oil-fracking-deals-2935768.html


BLM fracking racket exposed! Armed siege and cattle theft from Bundy ranch really about fracking leases
http://www.naturalnews.com/044670_BLM_lies_fracking_leases_Bundy_ranch.html

[Northway]

What part is it that you don't like? Is it the ESA being exposed for what it really is? The dishonesty of the "environmentalists" being exposed? The fact that the wolves that were released into the lower 48, were not released because they were endangered? The fact that what is happening now in Nevada is not about a turtle? Maybe everyone who has a problem with being lied to should just be quiet and let smarter people like you explain everything to them.

No one is telling you to be quiet. Before you go accusing me of thinking I'm smarter, be aware that I graduated high school with a 1.9 GPA.

What you call dishonesty I call a difference of opinion about what is an isn't endangered species. Is a species that could be classified as "endangered" in the US, really endangered if it exists in a healthy population in another country? What if there is a healthy population in another state? Those are just a couple of the many good questions that deserve to be addressed moving forward outside of litigation. The ESA has been around long enough that we should be able to reflect on some of the accomplishments & failures of the act.

It's fear that the act will be entirely scrapped or made even more intrusive that will prevent a real discussion from taking place.

[wolfbait]

What part is it that you don't like? Is it the ESA being exposed for what it really is? The dishonesty of the "environmentalists" being exposed? The fact that the wolves that were released into the lower 48, were not released because they were endangered? The fact that what is happening now in Nevada is not about a turtle? Maybe everyone who has a problem with being lied to should just be quiet and let smarter people like you explain everything to them.

No one is telling you to be quiet. Before you go accusing me of thinking I'm smarter, be aware that I graduated high school with a 1.9 GPA.

What you call dishonesty I call a difference of opinion about what is an isn't endangered species. Is a species that could be classified as "endangered" in the US, really endangered if it exists in a healthy population in another country? What if there is a healthy population in another state? Those are just a couple of the many good questions that deserve to be addressed moving forward outside of litigation. The ESA has been around long enough that we should be able to reflect on some of the accomplishments & failures of the act.

It's fear that the act will be entirely scrapped or made even more intrusive that will prevent a real discussion from taking place.

Thanks for the clarification NW! Sorry if you thought I thought you were smarter How the powers that be could make the ESA worse is hard to imagine, but then with the feds and environmentalists involved it's sure possible.

I think what we are doing hear is sharing opinions, and info. and debating the issue.

[Knocker of rocks]

Interesting read.

Militarized Siege Of Bundy Ranch IS All About Oil Fracking Deals
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/04/militarized-siege-of-bundy-ranch-is-all-about-oil-fracking-deals-2935768.html


BLM fracking racket exposed! Armed siege and cattle theft from Bundy ranch really about fracking leases
http://www.naturalnews.com/044670_BLM_lies_fracking_leases_Bundy_ranch.html

Dr. Wapiti could probably comment if that is even possible.  I'm not sure exactly where the Bundy Ranch is, but it sure seems like it's mostly granitoid basement in that area, and if true, these posts are inflammatory untruths. 

[Knocker of rocks]

Before you go accusing me of thinking I'm smarter, be aware that I graduated high school with a 1.9 GPA.

Rubbing it the nose of all the 1.8'ers

I call a difference of opinion about what is an isn't endangered species. Is a species that could be classified as "endangered" in the US, really endangered if it exists in a healthy population in another country? What if there is a healthy population in another state? Those are just a couple of the many good questions that deserve to be addressed moving forward outside of litigation. The ESA has been around long enough that we should be able to reflect on some of the accomplishments & failures of the act.

It's fear that the act will be entirely scrapped or made even more intrusive that will prevent a real discussion from taking place.

Very good points

[wolfbait]

Interesting read.

Militarized Siege Of Bundy Ranch IS All About Oil Fracking Deals
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/04/militarized-siege-of-bundy-ranch-is-all-about-oil-fracking-deals-2935768.html


BLM fracking racket exposed! Armed siege and cattle theft from Bundy ranch really about fracking leases
http://www.naturalnews.com/044670_BLM_lies_fracking_leases_Bundy_ranch.html

Dr. Wapiti could probably comment if that is even possible.  I'm not sure exactly where the Bundy Ranch is, but it sure seems like it's mostly granitoid basement in that area, and if true, these posts are inflammatory untruths.

You do have a choice as to how emotional you decide to become don't you N-rocks? As far as being untruths maybe you could call the BLM ands ask them about it. Or post facts that refute the story.