Western WA gophers going on endangered species list

[pianoman9701]

1600 acres of critical habitat.... Big deal. You guys are making a mountain out of a molehill.  Literally.

It is a big deal. It's a big deal to the person(s) who owns the land. And, it's a big deal to the next landowner(s) who loses land because someone discovers what we think is a rare rat.

It's also not enforced equally. It's even used by the government to forward agendas. Take for example the wolf program. The introduction of the Canadian grey wolf will almost certainly mean the end of the few remaining native Cascade wolves which have been protected under the ESA for 40+ years. However, when the USFWS developed it's wolf introduction plan, the native wolves of the Cascades were not even considered. When the larger Canadian wolves move in, that species will either be killed or bred out of existence. Where's the outrage and the restrictions to save an endangered creature? There is none and it will become extinct.

The corrupt government will only enforce the ESA when it fulfills established goals and agendas. Unfortunately for our native wolves, they meet neither of the criteria.

[WAcoyotehunter]

so tell me more about what it means for the private landowner?

And be specific. 

Critical habitat requires consultation for FEDERAL PROJECTS.  So please explain to me why this 1600 acres is a big deal.  Show me a map of the land ownership and how it might affect development.

[JLS]

These articles all detail INDUSTRY... it doesn't mention a farmer or small landowner wanting to build a house, or a little old lady that is not allowed to put in her garden.

Why are HUNTERS (We are hunters here right???) in favor of our big pieces of federal land being developed by industry??  Seriously...why?

How much have gas prices dropped since the 10,000 oil wells have been drilled in ND???  Are the American people so stupid to let industry destroy OUR public lands with the promise of energy independence??? 

Industry is screwing the American people and you guys are cheering them on.

Thank you!   

Sometimes I wonder whether this is actually a hunting website, or a right wing political website that sometimes talks about hunting.

[PolarBear]

Big Tex.  There is a rumor gong around here in Rainier that a certain horse facility and it's acreage along the Deschutes has been bought by the county as a pocket gopher preserve.  Do you know anything about that?  Also, what is the law as far as house/barn cats killing these gophers?   I'm square in the middle of the Yelm/Tenino area.
I see this as nothing more than a way for bitter citiot environmentalists to control us rural folk and for the county to steal more land and money.  It will be just another added fee when you want to sell or develop. 

[pianoman9701]

so tell me more about what it means for the private landowner?

And be specific. 

Critical habitat requires consultation for FEDERAL PROJECTS.  So please explain to me why this 1600 acres is a big deal.  Show me a map of the land ownership and how it might affect development.

Are you trying to tell me that you've never seen instances of private landowners not being able to use their land because of an ESA hold? It also seems that you hold individual private landowners more dearly than industrial or corporate landowners. Why is that? Should property rights be different for individuals than they are for industry/corporations? "These articles all detail INDUSTRY... it doesn't mention a farmer or small landowner wanting to build a house, or a little old lady that is not allowed to put in her garden."

I'd like to learn something new. Why don't you please show me a map of the 1600 acres and show me how no private landowners will be affected. And also explain to me why it's OK to infringe upon industrial/corporate land rights but not those just trying to build a house or put in a garden. Thanks.

[Elkaholic daWg]

1600 acres of critical habitat.... Big deal.  You guys are making a mountain out of a molehill.  Literally.

The big issue will be how these listings affect private property rights, local economies, and the ability to use our natural resources.  The videos illustrate the hardship placed on individuals due to the presence of the Mazama Pocket gopher.  This type of activity is happening all around the country.

"VITTER: Endangered Species Act’s hidden costs - Respect for private property at risk"
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/feb/8/endangered-species-acts-hidden-costs/

"The Radical Abuse of the ESA Threatens the US Economy"
http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidblackmon/2013/02/18/the-radical-abuse-of-the-esa-threatens-the-us-economy/

"Lawsuit challenges feds over 'sue and settle' tactics on endangered species"
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/03/18/lawsuit-challenges-feds-over-sue-and-settle-tactics-on-endangered-species/

"Abuse of Endangered Species Act threatens American's private property rights"
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/12/28/abuse-endangered-species-act-threatens-american-private-property-rights/

These articles all detail INDUSTRY... it doesn't mention a farmer or small landowner wanting to build a house, or a little old lady that is not allowed to put in her garden.


 In the beginning ask the Bundy's about progressive laws

Why are HUNTERS (We are hunters here right???) in favor of our big pieces of federal land being developed by industry??  Seriously...why?

 no we do no support raping and pillaging

How much have gas prices dropped since the 10,000 oil wells have been drilled in ND???  Are the American people so stupid to let industry destroy OUR public lands with the promise of energy independence???

Get the damn ethanol out of it and it would drop, as would everything that uses corn. ethanol also uses more energy to produce than it yields
 GREAT green idea there! 

Industry is screwing the American people and you guys are cheering them on.
And our government isn't??

[Curly]

Here is one scenario I can think of where the damn mole/gopher causes a person to lose because of this gopher being found on his property:

A couple has 5 acres that they have lived on for the last twenty years.  Their retirement plan involves subdividing the 5 acres into several lots and selling to make money for their retirement. 

As retirement nears, they get ready to put their parcel on the market but then find that they need to have a gopher study done to find out if any gophers live on their property.  They hire a biologist and $1,500 and 1 year later they have a study done where they find they have a family of gophers calling their property home.

Now their property is only worth what their one old home and the acreage is worth (which isn't enough to sell to cover their retirement costs).  Now they are stuck working instead of enjoying the retirement they had counted on.............all because of some damn mole/gopher. 

[huntrights]

so tell me more about what it means for the private landowner?

And be specific. 

Critical habitat requires consultation for FEDERAL PROJECTS.  So please explain to me why this 1600 acres is a big deal.  Show me a map of the land ownership and how it might affect development.

Information on the 1607 acres:
http://www.theolympian.com/2014/04/09/3077490/gophers-going-on-endangered-species.html?sp=/99/224/&ihp=1


Here are the videos from page 1 of this thread; please take a few minutes to watch them. 

These examples are very real, they are in Thurston County, they are very specific, they show the negative impact on private land owners, and they are directly related to the Mazama Pocket Gopher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iCHh5TRMw0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcwNOb9sYfE



Additional information:

Excellent report.
“Common Sense Conservation”
http://www.myfreedomfoundation.com/docLib/201211281_CommonSenseConservation.pdf


Finding Solutions to Improve the Endangered Species Act
http://hastings.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=355394


Further Details Sought on Costs of Hundreds of Endangered Species Act Lawsuits and Settlements
Chairman Hastings asks Obama Administration for more information
http://naturalresources.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=297790


Good report with several case studies.
“National Center for Policy Analysis Bad for Species, Bad for People:
What’s Wrong with the Endangered Species Act and How to Fix It”
http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/st303.pdf


Tiny animal, big threat to property owners
http://mynorthwest.com/194/2495014/Tiny-animal-big-threat-to-property-owners


“The Endangered Species Act (ESA) and Claims of Property Rights “Takings””
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL31796.pdf


“The Endangered Species Act:
Making Innocent Species the Enemy (full)”
http://perc.org/articles/endangered-species-act-1


“How Environmentalists Abuse Private Property Rights and Get Funding via Backroom Legal Settlements”
http://webworks.typepad.com/lakecountyfiscalrangers/2013/12/how-environmentalists-abuse-private-property-rights-and-get-funding-via-backroom-legal-settlements.html

[WAcoyotehunter]

s there a map of the sixteen hundred acres? What is the ownership, and the zoning? The county commissioners seem to be in favor of protecting the habitat, so it leads me to believe its not going to economically hurt the county...

[Curly]

The Thurston Co Commissioners are a bunch of lunatics.  So, just because they are for something doesn't mean it is good for the county.......in fact usually just the opposite.    These are the same commissioners that tried to ban shotgun shooting within 300 yards of all saltwater shoreline in the county.

There is a lot more area than 1600 acres that is habitat for the gophers.  There is potential pocket gopher habitat all over the county and anytime someone wants to do something with their property that has potential pocket gopher habitat, they have to hire a bio to study it and tell the county there isn't gophers living on the property.

Sounds like the area they designated as critical gopher habitat is mostly on JBLM property?  So, I guess that is good that they aren't taking private citizen's property to designate critical gopher habitat, but they actually will essentially be taking private property by not allowing development if gopher colonies are found to exist on the property.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01215/wdfw01215.pdf

The above link has some good info on the gopher.

[ICEMAN]

1600 acres of critical habitat.... Big deal.  You guys are making a mountain out of a molehill.  Literally.

Wow.... Do you own land?

[WAcoyotehunter]

 generally the feds try to make critical habitat designations on public property.they don't want the designation to look like a take or a land grab.

my guess is that that is why it is such a small amount.

having an endangered species on your private property can be a pain.it does not mean that you can't do anything with your property, you just have to be mindful of the resource

[buckfvr]

So are you saying we still have caribou ?   Verified ?

yes.  There is a small herd up here on the border with ID and BC.  They spend some time in each area.

From what we are hearing, there has been no confirmation in Wa. for the last few years.......I know they were there, but the wolf thing has made it a secret.  Can you confirm officially, or are you going by hearsay ?

[Elkaholic daWg]

 

[WAcoyotehunter]

The only confirmation in WA was tracks.  The herd was just north of the border, , ~3 miles.