new bow problems

[beastmodebowhunter]

ok guys ive been bow hunting for about 10 years and last year i bought a hoyt charger. seemed like a decent bow but i could never really get as accurate as bows in the past. its paper tuned shooting perfect bullet holes and i still do not get as tight as groups as i would like or as i have in the past. tried lots of practice and different grips thinking maybe it was different in my hand than bows in the last and have not seen any difference. do you think possibly the bow maybe just not is for me? maybe i should collect my losses and buy a new bow. i have literally shot this bow atleast 4 days a week since i have owned it. try to get out everyday and shoot but sometimes i cant do that. whats your guys opinion? am i losing it? haha

[DIYARCHERYJUNKIE]

Could be your arrows.    what draw length?  What poundage?  What's the brace height?  How many fletch?  What weight broad head?  What spine shaft?  This info may help others determine a cause.

[scottcrb]

i have the same bow and shoot it as much as you do , i agree it could be the arrows, have you also tried a walk back test ? are your groups off at all ranges? also i found that i needed a longer stabilizer. went from 6" out to almost 12" and it helped.

[beastmodebowhunter]

Could be your arrows.    what draw length?  What poundage?  What's the brace height?  How many fletch?  What weight broad head?  What spine shaft?  This info may help others determine a cause.

i had that all checked out by a couple of buddies that are extreme bow nuts. they said everything looks good.. i shoot 26" draw (little T-rex arms) 64.5 lbs, 3 fletch, carbon express maximas 450 with 125 grain tip.. have to shoot heavy to make legal weight with such a short draw. i have no problems in the past with other bows usually robinhooding no idea why i decided to sell those bows and get a new one haha. im not sure off hand what the brace is on the bow. i know its a little bow and i usually like the long axle to axle. let me know your opinion still. my experience with working on my bow goes as far as fletching my own arrows haha

[beastmodebowhunter]

i have the same bow and shoot it as much as you do , i agree it could be the arrows, have you also tried a walk back test ? are your groups off at all ranges? also i found that i needed a longer stabilizer. went from 6" out to almost 12" and it helped.

yea even at 20 i have like a 4" group im used to arrows stacking and robinhooding. i do have a 6-8" stabilizer though this could be a quick fix maybe i will see if a friend has one i can try out.

[scottcrb]

it is a short ATA bow and doesn't  have a big brace height either . mine has been pretty good but im a new archer, just started last july. maybe it has something to do with your sight ,peep or fall away.

[DIYARCHERYJUNKIE]

My bow was the same poundage before I got a new string.  I don't know how many grains per inch the 450s are but I shot 350 Ics hunters an still do with my 60# they are 9.3 grains per inch.  I also shoot four vein.  With my four blade brodheads it stabilizes the arrow quick.  Radsav could probably help more.  But it sounds like a change of some sort is in order.  20 yards they should stack.

[DIYARCHERYJUNKIE]

When checking for drop away contact you can spray the back of your arrow with foot powder and check for any rubs on your drop away.

[scottcrb]

yeah something has got to be off if your not getting groups at 20 yards.

[Buckmark]

Can any of your bow nut buddies shoot it to see how it shoots for them? If they shoot it well then you know its not the bow...
Just an idea.

[Jellymon]

Bullet holes in paper don't mean much, that's just a starting point so you can begin tuning. Start broadhead tuning and bare shaft tuning (no vanes). Those will tell you right away if something is wrong and give clues as to what it is. Just never fire a broadhead without vanes! That .300 spine arrow is also a little stiff for your setup.

This guide explains the tuning methods pretty well.

http://archeryhistory.com/archerytalk/The_Nuts&Bolts_of_Archery.pdf

[Old Dog]

At 26", even with a 125 grain head, I think you are probably over spine with a Maxima 450.  I would suggest leaving your arrows a little longer to soften that spine just a little, and it won't hurt to have an extra couple of inches of arrow out front.  You may even be able to drop to a 350 at 28", and still make legal weight.

[Mudman]

I agree, change arrows.  400?  Old dogs right I think.

[JLS]

Are we talking accuracy with broadheads, or field points? 

You are overspined.  However, I don't see how shooting a fall away rest/release that you will experience poor accuracy as a result.

I agree with Jellymon on checking tuning. 

I doubt the stabilizer is making a single bit of difference at 20 yards.

I am guessing it's either 1) contact or 2) a form issue from going to a short ATA bow or 3) your grip, or any combination of the above.

That said, I am certainly no expert.

[D-Rock425]

Have you checked your timing?

[pianoman9701]

Other things to check: what kind of release are you using and how are you using it? You may have had a more forgiving bow before and small issues with your technique have now become bigger issues. Is the timing correct? I also like the stabilizer suggestion and from what you've told us, your arrows are not the correct spine for the bow.

[sakoshooter]

Try shooting the 350 spine arrows. I know you've got a short draw length but with a 125 gr tip you're pushing it with that 450 spine and if it's a spine problem, it'll be magnified more yet with a broadhead. Today's bows are a bit harsher on the draw/shot, hence the advancements in speed, than yesteryear's bows. Many times they require a stiffer shaft.

[RadSav]

Maxima 450's at 26" would not reach optimal spine from that bow until you hit about 85 pounds of draw weight!!!  You are WAY over spined.  Carbon Express sizes do not represent spine weight.  The CE 450 is a 300 spine arrow.  Their 250 is a 400 spine arrow and the one you should be shooting out of that bow at that draw length.  Carbon Express shafts are amazing arrows, but throw away the nocks and switch to Easton Super-Nock, Micro-Lite or Bohning nocks.  That should go for anyone shooting CE arrows - their nock throats are way too tight!!

I think D-Rock might be on the right track with the timing comment.  That bow has a very narrow timing window.  Once set correctly it should shoot better than you, me, D-Rock and just about anyone out there.  Assuming everything is matched well...arrow spine for instance!

Secrets to shooting Hoyt bows well = Timing, Back tension, Very Loose Grip, Back tension, Draw length, Back tension, balance, Back tension, matched arrow spine and Back tension.

Way too many guys try to buy more accuracy these days.  Especially when they have a bargain bow.  Todays bargain bows are amazing shooters.  Tuned properly with matched components they should out shoot the shooter.  Charger is the same as the high end Hoyts just with a cheaper manufacturing process used to produce the riser and grip.  It would actually be my choice over many of the high priced, more expensive to produce, Hoyts.  It's a very good shooter!!!  Buying more consistency is probably a pipe dream

[RadSav]

Find someone who really knows how to tune a Hoyt bow properly.  "Come Get Some" comes to mind of someone rather close to you and he has offered to help others on this forum.  He may be one of those annoying "Target Guys"   But it's obvious he not only knows how to shoot and knows the Hoyt ins and outs better than a hired bow tech at some random shop.  I'd send him a PM and try and work out a get together.

You could always box it up and ship it down to me.  My work loads are crazy right now and it might take me a week to get to it.  But I could run it through the Hooter Shooter and make sure there is not some sort of mechanical issue.  Besides making sure your cams are tuned properly.  I can also review photo or video of your shooting and analyze your form too.  Same thing I expect you could get from "Come Get Some".  But, I seriously doubt you need all that.  Just someone who can get you tuned and then switch your arrows to proper spine.  Get that done and I bet you will be shooting lights out in no time.  That's a great bow!

[beastmodebowhunter]

Can any of your bow nut buddies shoot it to see how it shoots for them? If they shoot it well then you know its not the bow...
Just an idea.

they have shot it through paper and get bullet holes perfect but none of them have actually shot at a target. im sure it might be me in some way, just confused on how this bow has made my form inaccurate and the other bows i had i was money. its frustrating! i have always had my hand at the 45 degree with index and middle finger resting on the front of the grip with little to no pressure and had awful groups so i dug through the archery box found the old wrist sling and tried the complete open hand and still didnt make a difference. maybe i will take it and shoot it through paper.. they kept telling me it was good because they were shooting bullet holes but i guess everyone shoots a little different and if my form varies to theirs it would make the difference. i will do some tweaking today and report back. see if i cant figure this problem out! And HUGE typo mistake i just saw now.. arrows are 350 spine.

[RadSav]

350 spine is still a little stiff for that length and poundage on that bow.  Optimal spine of the 350 doesn't come into effect on that bow/arrow/point/length until you hit 78# of draw weight.  But it's a whole heck of a lot better than the 450

I despise shooting through paper to tune.  Too often you get good holes in paper but arrow flight is poor.  Then other times you get a good flying arrow that won't paper tune at all. Think of paper tuning as bore sighting a rifle.  It get's you close, but there is still plenty of fine tuning yet to do. 

Hoyt, probably more than any other bow/cam, benefits from a good creep tuning.  Tuning to maximize the amount of error you can get away with is essential with the Hoyt cam system.  Sometimes as little as 1/16" advancement in the upper cam can open up a world of forgiveness you otherwise wouldn't know you have.  I'd hate to have you give up on this great bow for something so easy to fix by someone with a little advanced Hoyt knowhow.

[RadSav]

Could you do me a favor and measure the insert to crotch of nock on those 350 Manheim Hunters?  Got your pictures and something is not matching up to my profile for you.

[Come Get Some]

Annoying target guy's?  Actually I am just a very picky bowhunter. Perfect is close enough.

  Remember all types of shooting make you a better bow hunter. Anyway. Thanks for the referral. I would love to help if I can. I agree, you are over spined. I set my rest at 3/4" from riser to center of arrow. Good starting point. Set your arrow a slight bit nock high. Throw the paper tuner in the burn barrel. A bullet hole will only get you exactly that, a hole in the paper. If and when I were to shoot a bullet hole(years ago) I would then go to 20 yds and sight in your 20 yd pin. Go to a blank bale at 20 yds, Shoot an arrow, go back to 30 yds and shoot at the same arrow with your 20 yd pin. Since you went back another 10 yds you should hit below your first arrow. If you feel you made a good shot and your arrow is slightly left, move your rest Very little to the right to bring the arrow under the other one. Same if you hit to the right. That should get you a perfect center shot set up. Given that you do not have a form issue(Grip can kill good arrow flight.)I usually set my top cam a little faster than my bottom cam (timing). If all of this does not work after changing arrows of course. Let me know your results.

[RadSav]

Annoying target guy's?  Actually I am just a very picky bowhunter. Perfect is close enough.

 

Come Get Some - Are you advancing your upper cam on those Hoyts with tiller or twists?

I got some pictures from Beastmode' and his left arm and hand look reasonably good!  Release hand looks to be floating so we are working on trying to figure out that cause right now.  Trying not to change his preferred anchor if at all possible but it may come down to that.  My first reaction is the 26" draw length isn't actually 26".  Should know that by this evening. 

You guys should really get together though.  That bow is too good not to be stacking arrows!

[dinker]

i have the same bow at 65# and a 27 inch draw (but im only like a 261/2"),  but i shoot good with it my wiskerbisket is being changed soon going to a drop away  because its getting to worn out.

[h20hunter]

"Dinker, out of the truck!"

"Oh owie ow ow!!!"

Hows the ankle Dinker?

[D-Rock425]

i have the same bow at 65# and a 27 inch draw (but im only like a 261/2"),  but i shoot good with it my wiskerbisket is being changed soon going to a drop away  because its getting to worn out.

shoot good with it   you got the same group as my shotgun at 40 yards.  You are hardly minute of elk at 40 yards. 

[D-Rock425]

"Dinker, out of the truck!"

"Oh owie ow ow!!!"

Hows the ankle Dinker?

looked like a beached whale flopping on the ground crying for his mommy.

[h20hunter]

Yeah...we give him crap but he sucked it up pretty good and got some hunting in.

[D-Rock425]

Yeah he sucked it up right along with his twinkies.

[RadSav]

my wiskerbisket is being changed soon because its getting to worn out.

Got to hate it when your Hairy Hole gets worn out

But, with friends like H2O and D-Rock I see how that can happen

[h20hunter]

Disturbing to say the least!

Just so you all know...this RadSav character......closet President of the Hoyt Fan Club. FYI.

[RadSav]

Disturbing to say the least!

Just so you all know...this RadSav character......closet President of the Hoyt Fan Club. FYI.

I probably do have half a dozen Hoyts in the closet.  I use them to show others how much faster and easier the Bowtech and cheaper Bear bows shoot and tune in comparison. 

[D-Rock425]

my wiskerbisket is being changed soon because its getting to worn out.

Got to hate it when your Hairy Hole gets worn out

But, with friends like H2O and D-Rock I see how that can happen

[h20hunter]

Disturbing to say the least!

Just so you all know...this RadSav character......closet President of the Hoyt Fan Club. FYI.

I probably do have half a dozen Hoyts in the closet.  I use them to show others how much faster and easier the Bowtech and cheaper Bear bows shoot and tune in comparison. 

Zing! Nicely done.

[RadSav]

We should have a new Hoyt in the House next week.  The wife got a new Carbon Ugly ordered up for her B-Day.  Maybe you had her and I mixed up for closet president of the fan club

[whackmaster]

sounds like it's time for a body slam 

[beastmodebowhunter]

Disturbing to say the least!

Just so you all know...this RadSav character......closet President of the Hoyt Fan Club. FYI.

I probably do have half a dozen Hoyts in the closet.  I use them to show others how much faster and easier the Bowtech and cheaper Bear bows shoot and tune in comparison. 

not making me feel any better haha 

[RadSav]

not making me feel any better haha 

If you go through my posts over the past few years you will see that I speak rather highly of Hoyt's Charger.  It's by far the best performance to price value in their line.  And a great shooting bow to boot!  The Hoyt cam is a bit finicky to tune for a wide margin of form error.  But with the right tech it's not a big deal at all!

You are probably too new on here to know D-Rock and a few of the other Hoyt worshipers like to give me grief for not being brainwashed by the fancy logo And I really get hammered if I call the ugly bow a spade   But my comments like the one above are all in good fun!  Nothing that should make you worried about your equipment or bow choice.  I think it was a very smart decision myself

Just need to get that arrow length so I can calculate what that bows actual draw length is.  Something was odd in your pictures and I think it might be the set draw length not being what you think it is   We will have you shooting lights out before the season even gets close.  No worries!

[Come Get Some]

Annoying target guy's?  Actually I am just a very picky bowhunter. Perfect is close enough.

 

Come Get Some - Are you advancing your upper cam on those Hoyts with tiller or twists?

I got some pictures from Beastmode' and his left arm and hand look reasonably good!  Release hand looks to be floating so we are working on trying to figure out that cause right now.  Trying not to change his preferred anchor if at all possible but it may come down to that.  My first reaction is the 26" draw length isn't actually 26".  Should know that by this evening. 

You guys should really get together though.  That bow is too good not to be stacking arrows!

 I advance the timing with twists. A very small amount. I did the same with the other bows I shot. Shot for PSE for 13 years. It worked well with the hybrid also.

[dinker]

my ankle is good h20 haha. radsav that was good haha and d-rock you`re an a$$ haha 

[D-Rock425]

my ankle is good h20 haha. radsav that was good haha and d-rock you`re an a$$ haha 

yeah that's right I am $money$