Youth Left Behind

[mhbrewster71]

I am new to this site and this email may stir up some controversy, but I am sending this on behalf of OUR youth. I read the posts for youth elk permits, which is what prompted me to join this site. On April 30th 2014 I sent a letter to DFW in regards to our youth-the future of conservation/hunting/fishing in our great State. DFW has not responded as of yet. I did, at a later date, send the same email to Senator Parlette and Representative Condotta. Both replied promptly and said they'd keep me informed. I am copying and pasting the original email I sent to DFW, below. The letter is fairly self-explanatory, but deals with more youth cow elk permits out of the increased cow permits in the Yakima/Ellensburg cow permit increases. And, allowing youth to harvest any mule deer buck.

I am hoping that DFW will increase the youth elk permit totals and allow youth to harvest any muley buck, and to make these changes prior to the permit submittal date of 5/22. Hopefully if enough of us get behind this, we can get these opportunities out there for OUR YOUTH.

Date: Wednesday, April 30, 2014
To: director@dfw.wa.gov, commission@dfw.wa.gov, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov


Dear Director Anderson, Commission members and Wildlife Program. As I go through the new hunting pamphlet I can't help but notice that once again it seems our youth, the future of our hunting and fishing and conservation in Washington State have once again been left behind. Our youth are still competing with adults for 3 point or better muley bucks in most areas. Why is that? DFW can give many reasons as to the WHY, I am sure. But if you want youth to continue to participate in big game hunting, having them compete with adults at the same time for the same deer is very discouraging. I know this because I have a son. I also have my nephews and friends who have children who are already discouraged with big game hunting because although we all enjoy the experience of being outdoors, teaching our children to be ethical and moral conservationists, the lack of success in actually harvesting an animal is disheartening. True, it's more than harvesting an animal, but why is it not ANY buck for youth in muley country? Are you concerned with parents shooting the animal and having their children tag it? Every parent I know who is a hunter would be on the phone calling DFW, state patrol or county Sherriff’s if we were to see this happen!!!! A young person who is successful, including a good clean harvest is more likely to continue the tradition of being a good conservationist and outdoorsman and pass it on to their children. Is it because the buck to doe ratio is out of whack? I clearly remember the day 30+ years ago harvesting my 1st buck! A 2 point muley! To me, it was the biggest buck in the world! From that day forward, I was hooked, as were many young men and women in my small town who were able to have similar experiences with their family and friends!! It was the TOTAL experience, a memory that will not be forgotten!!!

And, looking at the cow permit increases in the Teanaway, Colockum, Cowiche, Manastash, Little Naches, Umtanum, and those areas, between Muzzleloader, archery and rifle seasons, once again DFW dropped the ball, in my opinion. There are nearly 2000 more cow permits available in those areas, which as an adult I truly appreciate! But as a parent, am totally disheartened and disappointed that not ONE of the nearly 2000 increased permits were given to the youth!!! What would it have hurt to have given 10% of the allotment to our youth and allowed them to have the opportunity to draw a cow permit and then allow them to hunt during the bull permit season with those hunters who drew a bull tag, or at least allow them to start their hunt on the opening day of spike season so they have a somewhat better opportunity of harvesting a cow, rather than the later date with those who drew a cow permit. I am sure DFW has several responses that can appeal and oppose my thoughts, but I assure you, I AM NOT ALONE in my thoughts and concerns for the future of our youth!

I have heard that one of the concerns that DFW has is with hunter recruitment and hunter retention. If this is true, not focusing more on youth opportunities will not help in hunter recruitment and retention. I do not believe it is too late this year to do the right thing and add these for OUR youth before the permit deadline this year. It might be as simple as adding to the CHANGES page listed on your website under the Hunting Rules and Regulations Pamphlet.
Sincerely
Concerned Parent

[pianoman9701]

MH, I agree with parts of your post and disagree with some. I agree that some of those additional cow tags could be given to youth hunters and that would be an awesome use. However, when you talk about any buck in units that are 3 point and better, I have to disagree. They're limiting the bucks because they want to improve the overall population and genetics. It's one of the few times the DFW has made a decision based on biology and not which way the wind is blowing. A great lesson for youth is to teach them the importance of conservation and proper wildlife management, using hunters as a tool to achieve specific management goals. Although I agree that it would be easier for the youth if they were able to shoot any buck, I don't see that it 1. teaches them something valid about conservation, and 2. uses them, as we use all hunters, in the proper and science-based management of wildlife.

I think you're coming from a great place with your letter. I just don't particularly agree with all parts of it. Good luck in your efforts and please keep us posted on your responses and progress.
PMan

[Bullkllr]

 

Also, timing...comment period for this year's changes is well past.

[Karl Blanchard]

I agree with Pianoman.  I personally think that the central washington units should be permit only.  Our deer herds are hurting, but for the sake of the all mighty dollar, general seasons continue.  Now the cow elk hunts you hit spot on!  Youth should get their own separate, LONG, season for those cow permits too!  Antlerless permits are a tool used to keep bull:cow, buck:doe ratios in check, so give them ample time to themselves to have a quality hunt where they are not competing with the rest of the pumpkin patch!  Good stuff sir

[bobcat]

It's way too late for any changes to the permits for this year. They just can't change things after people have begun submitting their applications. Which has been going on for about three weeks now.

I don't know why more elk permits weren't allocated to the youth category. However, it's not the end of the world- kids can apply in the regular antlerless category as well. So it's not like they don't have a chance at drawing some of those cow permits this year.

[ghosthunter]

I too agree with youth cow tags.

But years ago they did a any buck youth hunt in Okanagan.
It was a disaster.

The game agent told me they wrote the highest amount of tickets for adults shooting the kids deer ever. (Party Hunting)

Just saying, It will not be any better today.

[dscubame]

I think our youth of today already has enough of the entitlement mindset.  I am for hunting equality across all ages.

[Bob33]

I'm a large advocate of youth...

However, I don't agree they should receive more permits or tags.

Animal harvest is a zero sum game: when one group gets more, another group gets less. Youth get more: who gets less? Do you take the permits away from seniors who've hunted and supported the state for 50 years? Do you take them away from disabled hunters? Which user group gets hit: modern, muzzleloader, or archery?

If I were to give more permits to any group, it would be seniors. The youth have a whole lifetime ahead of them; seniors don't.

Young hunters need to be taught that hunting is far more than killing and harvest. If they don't understand that, they will not be lifelong hunters anyway.

They also need to be taught that every animal is worthwhile: buck, doe, fawn.

My son has hunted with me since age seven. He has killed a few deer, and I'm thrilled that he has. He's drawn one youth permit (which he didn't fill), and one regular permit (which he didn't fill either.) 

Flame on.

[h20hunter]

Tough to flame that one.....well said.

[Special T]

I'm a large advocate of youth...

However, I don't agree they should receive more permits or tags.

Animal harvest is a zero sum game: when one group gets more, another group gets less. Youth get more: who gets less? Do you take the permits away from seniors who've hunted and supported the state for 50 years? Do you take them away from disabled hunters? Which user group gets hit: modern, muzzleloader, or archery?

If I were to give more permits to any group, it would be seniors. The youth have a whole lifetime ahead of them; seniors don't.

Young hunters need to be taught that hunting is far more than killing and harvest. If they don't understand that, they will not be lifelong hunters anyway.

They also need to be taught that every animal is worthwhile: buck, doe, fawn.

My son has hunted with me since age seven. He has killed a few deer, and I'm thrilled that he has. He's drawn one youth permit (which he didn't fill), and one regular permit (which he didn't fill either.) 

Flame on.

Not a flame but a large disagreement.

WDFW missed the boat because they COULD have given some of the permitts to youth...
I remeber my first Deer and elk kill, and hunted MANY years after those killings havesting nothing to try and replicate it. NOTHING gets a kid hooked like the first few good experiences. NOTHING... While its not the end of the world, it is further proof that what the WDFW says they want is NOT what thier actions would indicate.

I think the Cow elk permits and Any deer are completely different topics. I agree with the posters assesment of the cow elk and Disagree about the deer.

[Bob33]

Take a youth bird or small game hunting, and they will likely get far more shooting.

[Igottanewknee]

My daughter, who is now 20, is 9 points deep in quality elk points. I put in for her in youth permits for 5 years in whatever elk tag they had and never got drawn. I wish they youth had a few more permits..... Don't know if I should put her in this year though, baby due mid July. Her luck she would get drawn and not really have the time to do it. 

[Bob33]

My daughter, who is now 20, is 9 points deep in quality elk points. I put in for her in youth permits for 5 years in whatever elk tag they had and never got drawn. I wish they youth had a few more permits..... Don't know if I should put her in this year though, baby due mid July. Her luck she would get drawn and not really have the time to do it. 

At a minimum she can buy a ghost point.

[Special T]

Take a youth bird or small game hunting, and they will likely get far more shooting.

I agree that Bird hunting go t me more interested in hunting than big game from day one. However after killing my first deer and elk hooked me into big game and payed the state more $ than makes $ sense. I see both sides of the equation... I am VERY surprised that youth tags we not increased along with the general hunting populations and would guess that it was over looked. 

[pianoman9701]

1 post from the OP and nothing?

[boneaddict]

I'm a large advocate of youth...

However, I don't agree they should receive more permits or tags.

Animal harvest is a zero sum game: when one group gets more, another group gets less. Youth get more: who gets less? Do you take the permits away from seniors who've hunted and supported the state for 50 years? Do you take them away from disabled hunters? Which user group gets hit: modern, muzzleloader, or archery?

If I were to give more permits to any group, it would be seniors. The youth have a whole lifetime ahead of them; seniors don't.

Young hunters need to be taught that hunting is far more than killing and harvest. If they don't understand that, they will not be lifelong hunters anyway.

They also need to be taught that every animal is worthwhile: buck, doe, fawn.

My son has hunted with me since age seven. He has killed a few deer, and I'm thrilled that he has. He's drawn one youth permit (which he didn't fill), and one regular permit (which he didn't fill either.) 

Flame on.

Pretty much what I am thinking.

[Jingles]

From experience of what I have seen in the woods Dad's and some Mom's take their kids hunting so Dad or mom can shoot a doe. The kids gets the permit and mom or dad fill it. On three different occasions I have witnessed the parent (adult) shoot the deer then brag how the kid did, So no I don't feel sorry that they did not increase the number of permits for the youth

[pianoman9701]

From experience of what I have seen in the woods Dad's and some Mom's take their kids hunting so Dad or mom can shoot a doe. The kids gets the permit and mom or dad fill it. On three different occasions I have witnessed the parent (adult) shoot the deer then brag how the kid did, So no I don't feel sorry that they did not increase the number of permits for the youth

...and what a terrible lesson for the child to learn early in their hunting career. 

[mhbrewster71]

Thank you all for your responses. I truly appreciate it. When speaking of muley country, I am mainly speaking of Douglas County area. Maybe looking at a 2 point or better for youth and disabled would be appropriate? In recent years I have witnessed large 2 points chase off smaller 3's and 4's when the 2's had their "harem" at the wait. As for youth  of today seeming to be entitled, I would say that is a personal perception, rather than a fact. I am a school teacher and have been so for nearly 20 years. Have I witnessed students have a sense of entitlement-you bet. Have I witnessed students who feel like they have to work 10 times harder than the rest just to get by-you bet. It's the same with adults, so singling out youth as feeling a sense of entitlement doesn't seem like a fair statement.

Someone posted that the comment period for changes in DFW for youth is well past. I agree. I, along with several of my friends, made these comments on DFW's survey, to no avail. And I totally agree that our seniors and disabled should get a large allotment of the cow permits (and maybe even allowed to harvest a few 2 point bucks). My father is disabled, a senior, and a veteran. I was just running some numbers, looking at total elk permits available for seniors: 252 total this year. Last year around 5000 seniors applied for those permits. Odds of drawing 1 in 20. For the disabled, 91 permits available this year. Around 3150 applied for those last year. Odds in drawing: 1 in 35. For youth elk there are 46 permits available. Last year 4,232 youth applied for those. Odds in drawing 1 in 92.

There was another reply that stated which user groups would we pull the extra cow permits from? 10% of the increase of cow permits is right around 180.  Personally, I'd be more than happy to give 120 of those to the disabled and the seniors, and the other 60 to the youth (which is 14 more than they are offered currently, pushing their total to 106). Would taking 60 cow permits from each user group (archery, muzzleloader and rifle) have made that much of an impact? I'm not sure?

Another user made a statement "Young hunters need to be taught that hunting is far more than killing and harvest. If they don't understand that, they will not be lifelong hunters anyway." I totally agree. It is way more than the harvest of an animal-time with family, friends, being outdoors, the respect of wildlife and land owners. Teaching ethics and morals. Building life long traditions and memories. As outdoorsmen, we all started somewhere, and something in our souls triggered this life long connection to the outdoors, being thoughtful conservationists and hunters.

In regards to another comment-And, for those adults who go out and harvest an animal and have children tag it, or claim it, and make up stories, they aren't true conservationists, outdoorsmen, and hunters. Their ethics and morals are non-existent. The lessons they teach youth when doing this are poor, and part of the reason we as hunters are always under scrutiny by the non-hunting public.

Thank you pianoman. It was good to hear your perspectives.

And, I'm not sure what "flame on" means in a positive or negative sense? But I'll keep working for the benefit of OUR youth.

[boneaddict]

I have contemplated a two point hunt for youth as a solution for the "problem" we might have with too many twos surviving, if there is such a thing.  I am not sure if I would go as far as making it an additional hunt(tag), or open to all two points and youth.  That seems a bit much.   This world is full of everyone wanting the creme and then more creme.   I think there are some options here for management and for some good, but people including the department tend to be greedy so I am skeptical.

[Special T]

"Flame ON" is a term used to invite people to disagree in a vocal matter.

Normally it would involve someone calling Bob names like bunny hugger, hippy, liberal or some other colorful name. 

Flaming normally happens when some one is too lazy or not articulate enough to make a case for/against but feels the need to chime in because thier oppinion is so important. 

[DoubleJ]

I have contemplated a two point hunt for youth as a solution for the "problem" we might have with too many twos surviving, if there is such a thing.  I am not sure if I would go as far as making it an additional hunt(tag), or open to all two points and youth.  That seems a bit much.   This world is full of everyone wanting the creme and then more creme.   I think there are some options here for management and for some good, but people including the department tend to be greedy so I am skeptical.

If you ever get around the Brewster area, I will give you directions to a place, just east of the Central Ferry State Wildlife Area to go see anywhere from 12-20 or so mulie bucks, 250lb big bodied bruisers with forkie antlers no thicker than a Sharpie marker.  It's the only deer in that area.  Anything bigger has been shot out of there.  If anyone can find something bigger in that area, you can and I'd like to see if it's possible.  For that area, I am all for a 2pt tag for youths.

[pianoman9701]

And MH, welcome to the site. 

[Colville]

I’m a father of three.  My son has been coming on hunts since he was 7, he’ll have his first license this year at 11.  My youngest daughter is 8 and is tagging along on an August bear hunt for the first time this year and my oldest daughter 13 announced that she wants to come deer hunting in October. 

I have two opinions.  First, the state can’t create by tags a love for this sport that isn’t already either innate in the child or grown through the love of family and the outdoors handed to them by their parents.  The state can’t take that love from them either, no matter what rules they put in place.  The allocation of tags is not really the basis of growing hunting in our youth. The real problem is the lack of introduction because of the hurdles of opportunity, proximity, expense and experienced adults to show them how.  My son has hunted in the dark tangled woods of the NE corner with me, well off roads sitting freezing in the snow in November without a tag.  I’ve talked with him about some of the youth, second deer tags and agg land permits available and his interest level in those permits.  He says this:  “well, maybe if after we really hunt we could do that”.   Tags aren’t the problem or solution to youth introduction.

The people least likely to need any assistance getting their kids engaged, because they are dedicated hunters and outdoorsmen, often are the ones wanting extra shots at filling the family freezer with youth opportunity. I will benefit from this, though I’m not asking for it. Want to improve introduction; start a mentoring/partnership program, align depredation permits with new hunters in that program, reduce or waive license fees for participants for the first year they obtain a license.  Lower the real bars to hunting. Struggle is only a bar to recruiting hunters because we’ve caved to instant gratification, something we should mightily fight against.

The second, when it comes to public resources I lean towards being a wildlife libertarian.  The resource is ours equally and I can’t come up with a good reason to provide disproportionate opportunity to one citizen over another.  Why should my neighbor get worse draw odds because he and his wife couldn’t have children?  I do waiver from that somewhat, and without a proper logic, when it comes to disability.

[PA BEN]

talking to some of these guys and gals about lifting antler restrictions for youth is like trying to tell Rosie O'Donnell to put the spoon down.    Good luck, I hope someday it will be lifted for youth, seniors and disabled here in 121 also.

[pianoman9701]

All due respects Ben, why stop at youth, senior, and disabled? Why not vets, active duty, gingers, the liberally impaired, and the mentally challenged (redundant?)? Assuming the antler restrictions are in place because of a decision based on conservation goals and principles, why would they want to make an exception for anyone? If the critters are in trouble and need to have antler restrictions to restore their numbers, no one should take them.

I'm all for making a great experience for our youth to get them started off right. But that doesn't include throwing conservation out the window because you feel obligated to or compassionate toward a specific group. Figure out another way to keep them interested. I didn't get my first deer until I was 16. It made it all the sweeter when it happened.

[PA BEN]

WOW, take a pill man. Unless you have taken one of these groups out hunting you will never understand. This thread is about youth being left behind and I believe they are.

[pianoman9701]

I don't need a pill, Ben, but thanks for the offer. I do more in shooting and the outdoors with other peoples' kids than many do with their own. So I have plenty of experience there.

If a wildlife population is stressed, it makes no sense to make exceptions from restrictions designed to recover the population. I see you disagree. In my opinion, there are already far too many wildlife decisions in WA which are made on emotion and not science - like the wolf program. When wildlife management decisions are made using science, we should support them.

Youth may well be being left behind in hunting, but ignoring scientific wildlife management isn't the right way to address it.

[PA BEN]

It's great we can agree to disagree. I see first hand all the deer that get hit on 395 between Chewelah and Colville. I know the pressure that was put on the Game Dept. to do this was from local Modern fire arm hunter groups who started open meetings in Chewelah back in the '90's w/the county commissioners. When they got big money guys on their side that's when wdfw started to listen. We bow hunters went to these meetings and got run off because we had a great season and they wanted to take it away from us. The last meeting I went to they where bashing muzzle loader hunters and I spoke up and said hay guys we as hunters need to stick together. It's about our kids the future hunters and what's best for us all as hunters. That's when the leader of the group chewed me out because I was a bow hunter. I did point out the fact that he has shown me all the big buck racks he has shot on Rights Mt. just south of Chewelah and that he had no problem shooting big deer. Then he really blew his stack, I looked around the room and said if this is the kind of leader you want you can have it, I'm done and left. The meeting before that one my buddy who is a bow hunter walked up to the front table after they went on this bow hunter bashing season and set his bow on the table and said you lay your 300 H&H mag. next to it and tell me what I need to take off my bow to make it equal to you 300 H&H? Then he said "O, that's right you might get lucky when you step out of your truck to take a leak and see a deer to shoot."  He grabbed his bow and walked out. 

[pianoman9701]

The pitting of hunter groups against each other seems to be a favorite pastime of the DFW. I absolutely understand your anger.

[Bob33]

The pitting of hunter groups against each other seems to be a favorite pastime of the DFW.

They get plenty of help.

[pianoman9701]

Yes they do.