Police seek steelhead bandits who released 25,000 fish

[Antlershed]

Because once we give up our fishing, we will never get it back. Do you think these Wild Fish groups will EVER be ok with us bonking a native steelhead?   

[Bullkllr]

So in your eyes its better to destroy the population by playing god and not fixing the issues just so we as sportsman can fish?  If the state and sportsman pull their head out of their asses and start to realize that we have destroyed this species over the past few decades and actually does something about it, they will make it. 

If you shutdown the fishing, you lose fishermen and then the advocacy for fishable fish.  The greenies will still use fish for their agenda, but won't want any humans to ever catch one.  The fishermen that still live in the area give it up and play golf.  If they do go fishing it will be in Idaho, Alaska, Mexico, Florida.....just make a trip or two each year and forget about Washington.

Thats the shortsightedness of todays society.  It is a want it now mentality and since this will take time many will just abandon it.  If fisherman give up as soon as a river is shut down it is their own fault if the river never reopens barring poor management from above, which we know will happen anyway.  It's the greed I mentioned in one of my previous posts.

Shortsightedness...you bet. Still not sure I'm seeing the greed you mention. I think it's more "giving in to insurmountable factors" in many cases.

What I'm really talking about here is how there is next to nothing being done about a laundry list of factors negatively impacting our steelhead. The ONE that is being done away with is the one that will perhaps have the least positive effect. And it will have the impact of removing the only people who have a reason to care about steelhead from the equation. It's perhaps a tiny gain for wild fish, but it's not worth the cost. All because of the politics involved, and the DFW took the easiest target. And fishermen (and fish!) are hosed again. The continued overflow of anglers to peninsula streams alone makes this a horrible decision.

And now it's fishermen's own fault if rivers never reopen?...it's societies fault, dude, which means all of us. Enjoying that cheap Chelan/Douglas County PUD power much...?

[teal101]

So in your eyes its better to destroy the population by playing god and not fixing the issues just so we as sportsman can fish?  If the state and sportsman pull their head out of their asses and start to realize that we have destroyed this species over the past few decades and actually does something about it, they will make it. 

If you shutdown the fishing, you lose fishermen and then the advocacy for fishable fish.  The greenies will still use fish for their agenda, but won't want any humans to ever catch one.  The fishermen that still live in the area give it up and play golf.  If they do go fishing it will be in Idaho, Alaska, Mexico, Florida.....just make a trip or two each year and forget about Washington.

Thats the shortsightedness of todays society.  It is a want it now mentality and since this will take time many will just abandon it.  If fisherman give up as soon as a river is shut down it is their own fault if the river never reopens barring poor management from above, which we know will happen anyway.  It's the greed I mentioned in one of my previous posts.

Shortsightedness...you bet. Still not sure I'm seeing the greed you mention. I think it's more "giving in to insurmountable factors" in many cases.

What I'm really talking about here is how there is next to nothing being done about a laundry list of factors negatively impacting our . The ONE that is being done away with is the one that will perhaps have the least positive effect. And it will have the impact of removing the only people who have a reason to care about steelhead from the equation. It's perhaps a tiny gain for wild fish, but it's not worth the cost.

And now it's fishermen's own fault if rivers never reopen?...it's societies fault, dude, which means all of us. Enjoying that check Chelan County PUD power much...?

I agree there is very little being done about the big impact factors.  The WDFW follows the money sadly.  I agree with the closure of the hatcheries.  I dont agree with WDFW's reasoning on this one though.  I also dont agree with their lack of initiative to improve other factors effecting wild fish.  The greed is the thought process of "Keep planting so I have something to catch, regardless of future consequences".  It's ignoring what is better for the species as a whole for personal gain.

If fisherman give up on a fish species because they cant fish for them due to lack of numbers, yes they are a contributing factor.  The blame is not all on them, I agree it is societies fault as a whole.  The mentality of just giving up on Steelhead when the fishing closes though is wrong.  I'd gladly pay an increase in my power bill if it helped restore Salmon and Steelhead runs so I can fish for them in the future and so that my kids can.  Many arent willing to make that sacrifice.  One step furthers the cause, unfortunately there are MANY more steps that need to be taken, many of which I've mentioned, that WDFW is doing nothing about.  The mining is a big one, one which Idaho and Oregon have figured out.

[teal101]

Because once we give up our fishing, we will never get it back. Do you think these Wild Fish groups will EVER be ok with us bonking a native steelhead?   

Many of the wild Steelhead groups are fishers.  The idea is to restore the runs so a catch and release fishery can eventually open up on most of the closed rivers followed by an allowable harvest.  The thought process behind the wild fish groups is not to end fishing, it is to restore the population to naturally sustain fishing.  I cant speak for all groups as there are the radical ones that want all harvest done away with, but that is not the agenda of many of the wild fish groups.

[BOWHUNTER45]

Because once we give up our fishing, we will never get it back. Do you think these Wild Fish groups will EVER be ok with us bonking a native steelhead?   

Many of the wild Steelhead groups are fishers.  The idea is to restore the runs so a catch and release fishery can eventually open up on most of the closed rivers followed by an allowable harvest.  The thought process behind the wild fish groups is not to end fishing, it is to restore the population to naturally sustain fishing.  I cant speak for all groups as there are the radical ones that want all harvest done away with, but that is not the agenda of many of the wild fish groups.

I am lost on your logic ...all these fishing groups obviously mean nothing ..they will not ever change the rules from those who are making the rules ... I am so discussed over how the state of Washington manages anything ...from elk -deer or fish ...all they care about is money ..the money the sportsmen throw at them should be used for the resources and not in some money hungry politician ...We all know its about the Indians and they just give us enough so we keep donating ...we need a serious up rising on all the issues ...Either we all just quit or let everything die and no one has to worry about it ...You want to bring more Native fish back ? Do not we all ! But the only ones that will benefit from it is the Indians ...Our rivers should be full of fish year around so we all can enjoy but they do not want us to ..otherwise they would be talking in a positive way so we all will listen and participate ..All they talk about is finding ways to take it away ...I am tired of it and they can all jump in the river and hope they sink to the bottom and become fish food ! I say I am sorry BUT I REALLY AM NOT !! These kids now days have nothing to do and half of them can not even find a job and you would think they would do whatever they could to make the resources a viable as they should be doing ...the whole issue comes down to Native Steelhead ...once they take it away we will never enjoy it again ...I do not trust the son of a beaches at all !!

[RG]

I really believe there is one common core issue that runs through every one of these discussions about WDFW management whether it's wolves, tribal hunting and fishing, hatchery steelhead, hatchery salmon, spotted sea butterflies or whatever the topic of the day is. WDFW has for years practiced wildlife management by politics as a priority over wkldlife management by science.  Politics and special interests who are connected to the right people and who have the funds to be interesting always win over science every time.  It's so predictable that it's embarrassing. They rub it in the faces of sportsmen and women and don't even try to disguise it because they can.

[singleshot12]

I just wish they would open up a mule deer hatchery so they can suppliment our declining native mulies with hatchery mulies... They could clip their tails so we know which ones are hatchery mulies... 

Now that's funny... but really not a bad idea! It would definitely create more opportunity right? and that's really whats it all about. Half of our hunting and fishing is already "generic" why not have it all now.the future is here
WE WANT OUR HATCHERY BRATS BACK!!!

[singleshot12]

Because once we give up our fishing, we will never get it back. Do you think these Wild Fish groups will EVER be ok with us bonking a native steelhead?   

Many of the wild Steelhead groups are fishers.  The idea is to restore the runs so a catch and release fishery can eventually open up on most of the closed rivers followed by an allowable harvest.  The thought process behind the wild fish groups is not to end fishing, it is to restore the population to naturally sustain fishing.  I cant speak for all groups as there are the radical ones that want all harvest done away with, but that is not the agenda of many of the wild fish groups.

I am lost on your logic ...all these fishing groups obviously mean nothing ..they will not ever change the rules from those who are making the rules ... I am so discussed over how the state of Washington manages anything ...from elk -deer or fish ...all they care about is money ..the money the sportsmen throw at them should be used for the resources and not in some money hungry politician ...We all know its about the Indians and they just give us enough so we keep donating ...we need a serious up rising on all the issues ...Either we all just quit or let everything die and no one has to worry about it ...You want to bring more Native fish back ? Do not we all ! But the only ones that will benefit from it is the Indians ...Our rivers should be full of fish year around so we all can enjoy but they do not want us to ..otherwise they would be talking in a positive way so we all will listen and participate ..All they talk about is finding ways to take it away ...I am tired of it and they can all jump in the river and hope they sink to the bottom and become fish food ! I say I am sorry BUT I REALLY AM NOT !! These kids now days have nothing to do and half of them can not even find a job and you would think they would do whatever they could to make the resources a viable as they should be doing ...the whole issue comes down to Native Steelhead ...once they take it away we will never enjoy it again ...I do not trust the son of a beaches at all !!

BH45 SPEAKS TRUTH

[4fletch]

I have always thought that if everybody stopped buying licenses for 1 year our everything would change for the better

[stevemiller]

The problem with what your saying (EVERYBODY) is that it will never be everybody,Just the non natives.If it was everybody I think that it would be less of a problem for most,Then again on the other hand once its closed will it ever open again?Track record for this state says no. 

[stevemiller]

Could someone explain to me what the scientific problem is with putting hatchery fish in the rivers to begin with,Not some oppinion either.Did they use some mixture of non steelehead to make the hatchery steelies or what?Im not understanding the poor gene problem.

[snowpack]

Could someone explain to me what the scientific problem is with putting hatchery fish in the rivers to begin with,Not some oppinion either.Did they use some mixture of non steelehead to make the hatchery steelies or what?Im not understanding the poor gene problem.

The hatchery fish in question came from Chambers Creek near Tacoma.  I believe they were selected because of their run timing, many start returning in November with the bulk around Christmas to New Year's.  So they are actual sea-run rainbow/steelhead and from the Puget Sound region.  The way they are now, they have been bred in captivity for many generations and shared amongst hatcheries.  They've become I guess a good term is a 'generic' steelhead.  The only scientific argument I've heard of for having any real impact on wild fish is the competition for food.  The interbreeding, from what I've read, hasn't been shown to be a large factor.  I think it was like less than a percent of wild fish are bred by hatchery fish.  Most hatchery fish return to the hatchery with a small percentage straying up to the redds (I think it was like 2%).  The hatchery fish tend to arrive so much earlier that if they are waiting around upstream for months, they are more likely to be lost due to slides and high water.  Then there is also the issue with ability to breed--the hatchery fish are reported to not do a good job at it and don't produce all that many fry outside of a hatchery environment. So all the low percentages combined give a much lower percentage.

[Bullkllr]

Another great post, Snowpack

As I am aware, the Chambers Creek stock originated at the Chambers Creek Hatchery. Apparently the natural run there has been extinct for awhile (not sure how long). The present CC stock is considered to be a "mutt", ie a conglomeration of various stocks (including actual CC stock) from various systems when it was "created" back in the 50s. So basically it's a "generic" stock resulting from various crossbreeding attempts as they selected for early returning winter fish. Since it's used all over Western Washington (and hatcheries typically spawn their own returning fish), it may be a slightly different stain returning to, say, the Bogachiel than to the Cowlitz for instance. But, yes, the genetics are way different than any fish that existed naturally wherever they are currently used.

Another impact of the early returning hatchery fish that I think it would be a mistake to overlook has been the near elimination of the early returning wild fish. Historically (before my time) wild winter runs were often reported to be as common in December as in March. But by "creating" the early-returning hatchery run two things happened:
1. Hatchery fish attempt to spawn with wilds- effectively taking the wild fish out of the gene pool as the spawning typically is a wasted effort for viable production (x multiple generations = significant impact). More a concern when you actually have the two runs converging in the same time-frame, obviously.
And 2. Perhaps the bigger impact was focusing harvest effort (both sport and tribal) on the time period the hatchery fish were returning in large numbers. Early returning wild fish were harvested at a higher rate along with the hatchery fish (again, x over multiple generations), seriously depleting and in some cases nearly eliminating that component of the wild runs.

The defunct Snider Creek project on the Sol Duc was focused on collecting and spawning early-retuning wild fish in an effort to rebuild those numbers.

[stevemiller]

why do a lot of people say that st. helens eruption is the cause of the downfall of fish in wa. ?

[Bullkllr]

why do a lot of people say that st. helens eruption is the cause of the downfall of fish in wa. ?

The most obvious and intense impact of the eruption was the mud flow that basically obliterated the North Toutle river. The channel was scoured and widened. All fish present were killed and habitat will be affected for generations. Sediment is still flowing out of the deposits left by the eruption, but less heavy now than in the past. Fish are gradually coming back, but with the river still looking like liquid cement during hot weather spells or when it rains much; it's no wonder they're slow in coming back. The South Toutle was affected, but not as heavily as the North- and has recovered faster and so have it's fish. The lower Cowlitz below the Toutle still runs pretty colored when the Toutle's pumping sediment- that and the main Toutle could have enough of a sediment load to affect fish survival I imagine( ).

Outside of the stream devastation in the immediate area of the eruption, I really couldn't say what other negative impacts there could be  . Some of the lakes up really close to the mountain had trout survive the eruption- and I guess they are still doing well 34 years later.