Why most probably don't see wolves as much of a public safety problem

[idahohuntr]

I do not have any reason to believe that they happened in WA- if there is some evidence (and there would be...the WDFW is not organized enough to that it covertly) it should

I do find it funny that the same folks who claim the government/WDFW/USFWS are incompetent and incapable of managing a two car parade down main street will then give them credit for pulling off an elaborate conspiracy and cover-up 

[bearpaw]

When people intentionally distort the truth and make outrageous claims the burden should be on them to provide CREDIBLE evidence supporting their claim.     There is enough controversy around wolf management that we don't need these silly distractions about wolf releases that take away from the important issues like de-listing and demonstrating the hunting community is a reasonable group of well informed folks who have an interest in conserving all of Washingtons wildlife...including deer and elk.

Are my comments antagonistic...   My point is back up the claims with credible evidence or stop the lies...I'm not sure how to put that more gently. 

Fact: USFWS and WDFW NEVER RELEASED WOLVES IN WA STATE.  This should not be a difficult one to understand...if they were going to use cover-ups and conspiracies to release wolves it would have been more believable in Idaho where there is much more opposition.  Releasing wolves in WA would have been met with open arms...this one doesn't even make sense. 
http://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/gray_wolf/faq.html#1

Fact: Wolves were not released in Idaho by USFWS/IDFG in 2004/5.  Wolfy says this was done because they weren't expanding rapidly enough...yet he also claims wolf numbers expanded to large numbers in ID and decimated game populations throughout Idaho...which is it wolfy?
http://www.fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/wildlife/wolves/?getPage=161

I have provided links to the facts I posted.  So, either IDFG, WDFW and USFWS are involved in some super conspiracy...or wolves were released in 1995/96 and expanded naturally from there.  I'm sticking with the latter in the absence of ANY CREDIBLE EVIDENCE DEMONSTRATING OTHERWISE.

I hear a lot of accusations that the "pro-management" crowd, (that is my preferred name to be called) has been guilty of name calling and failing to provide credible facts. Then I see a post like your post and ask myself what's up with this?

The road goes both ways, if the "pro wolf" crowd wants to accuse the "pro management" crowd of being factless and of name calling, then you had better play by the rules too. Just sayin....

Maybe wolfbait has proof maybe he doesn't, but I think your comments went beyond the normal level of civility that should be expected on this forum.

I also should note that wolfbait has been banned in the past for his comments to other members. I would expect you should be held to the same level of respect as what has been required of wolfbait and other members.

[bearpaw]

Let me take off my admin hat and comment about the subject.

I think there is a lot of evidence that wolves move around across state lines and agree that happens constantly. But, I also do not trust the USFWS, the same agency that illegally took Pittman Robertson funds to fund wolf recovery. Do you need a link for proof of that, that info is documented on this forum, it was proven in congress, if you want proof simply look back in the older wolf topics. I will also point out that the past director of Idaho Fish and Game went against the Idaho legislature and gave USFWS service a permit to plant wolves in Idaho after the Idaho legislature passed legislation opposing the wolf plant. That info is also posted on this forum.

I tend to think that WDFW would not release wolves without going through the proper process, but exactly how do we know that WDFW, USFWS, or even some wolf group did not turn wolves or hybrids loose in Washington. The level of honesty and trust in our government is about as low as it has ever been and that is due to the actions of government agencies. We all know there are wolf groups and individuals raising wolves, is there any accountability of what they are raising and where they are going?

[wolfbait]

We have been hearing about "illegal releases" for years.  I agree that it is time for Wolfbait to provide some shread of evidence to support those claims, or quiet down about them.  I do not have any reason to believe that they happened in WA- if there is some evidence (and there would be...the WDFW is not organized enough to that it covertly) it should have been produced by now. 

This argument has been going on for several years... it's probably about time to share some of the information that he has been eluding to to back up his claims.

(if there is some evidence (and there would be...the WDFW is not organized enough to that it covertly)

COVERTLY? Really? WDFW really didn't seem to be trying to hide the releases they were caught at, hell they were in broad daylight.

WC, There are several people anxious to see WDFW exposed for releasing wolves in WA. Some of these people have spent countless hours talking with people who saw WDFW release wolves, and took it as far as they could, but without pictures or filming of the releases, it would be pretty hopeless in court.  That being said, waiting a few more years won't hurt.  If I'm willing to wait, you shouldn't have any problem, maybe WDFW will be filmed releasing wolves a few more times?

[WAcoyotehunter]

We have been hearing about "illegal releases" for years.  I agree that it is time for Wolfbait to provide some shread of evidence to support those claims, or quiet down about them.  I do not have any reason to believe that they happened in WA- if there is some evidence (and there would be...the WDFW is not organized enough to that it covertly) it should have been produced by now. 

This argument has been going on for several years... it's probably about time to share some of the information that he has been eluding to to back up his claims.

(if there is some evidence (and there would be...the WDFW is not organized enough to that it covertly)

COVERTLY? Really? WDFW really didn't seem to be trying to hide the releases they were caught at, hell they were in broad daylight.

WC, There are several people anxious to see WDFW exposed for releasing wolves in WA. Some of these people have spent countless hours talking with people who saw WDFW release wolves, and took it as far as they could, but without pictures or filming of the releases, it would be pretty hopeless in court.  That being said, waiting a few more years won't hurt.  If I'm willing to wait, you shouldn't have any problem, maybe WDFW will be filmed releasing wolves a few more times?

So you're going to continue to beat that drum while we all wait for the Schwan's man story to be verified??  I don't believe that there is any evidence coming forward. 

[wolfbait]

We have been hearing about "illegal releases" for years.  I agree that it is time for Wolfbait to provide some shread of evidence to support those claims, or quiet down about them.  I do not have any reason to believe that they happened in WA- if there is some evidence (and there would be...the WDFW is not organized enough to that it covertly) it should have been produced by now. 

This argument has been going on for several years... it's probably about time to share some of the information that he has been eluding to to back up his claims.

(if there is some evidence (and there would be...the WDFW is not organized enough to that it covertly)

COVERTLY? Really? WDFW really didn't seem to be trying to hide the releases they were caught at, hell they were in broad daylight.

WC, There are several people anxious to see WDFW exposed for releasing wolves in WA. Some of these people have spent countless hours talking with people who saw WDFW release wolves, and took it as far as they could, but without pictures or filming of the releases, it would be pretty hopeless in court.  That being said, waiting a few more years won't hurt.  If I'm willing to wait, you shouldn't have any problem, maybe WDFW will be filmed releasing wolves a few more times?

So you're going to continue to beat that drum while we all wait for the Schwan's man story to be verified??  I don't believe that there is any evidence coming forward.

There have been many WDFW wolf releases that have been brought out before and after the wolf releases in the Methow Valley in 2009. The one thing we have learned is that, all the ducks have to be in line for the information to go anywhere, I'm sure you would agree.

It doesn't surprise me that you claim WDFW have never released wolves in WA. Every time wolf releases by WDFW are brought up the pro-wolf crowd is first in line to squelch any such talk, any more it's kind of comical, especially with rants like Idahohunter's screech.

At this stage in the game it really doesn't matter except for the fact that at least folks will know how the Canadian wolves really got started in WA and why they expanded so quickly. The Question I'm sure many will have is why did WDFW drag wolf delisting out for so long?  What was WDFW's reason to pretend the wolves were "migrating" into WA, when all along they were releasing them? And why did WDFW refuse to confirm wolf packs they knew of unless they were forced to do so.  I think these are questions that might take a bite out of WDFW, not only from hunters, and ranchers but also from rural people who have had their pets attacked and killed, plus the hidden danger of wolf attacks on their children and themselves.

[idahohuntr]

You live in a bizarre world of twisted conspiracy.   

You say it doesn't matter if WDFW released wolves yet you constantly bring it up.  I agree that it doesn't matter because the wolves are here...so why do you keep going back to these old, stale lies?  Surely you can come up with new conspiracies?  I mean for someone who doesn't let facts and logic impede your statements you have to be able to come up with newer and better conspiracies.

[bobcat]

Why is it so hard to believe that with wolves in Idaho and British Columbia, that they would eventually make their way across the border into Washington? Not to mention, we already had wolves. I saw three in the Chiwawa unit in 1990.

[Special T]

Why is it so hard to believe that with wolves in Idaho and British Columbia, that they would eventually make their way across the border into Washington? Not to mention, we already had wolves. I saw three in the Chiwawa unit in 1990.

Here is where my BS meter goes off. "IF" wolves naturally migrated We should be seeing a lot more wolves S of I 90 much quicker than we have. We know that wolves packers were in the Psyden unit in the 90's about the same time wolves were reintroduced into ID and YNP. Wolves have moved West a whole lot quicker than they have moved south in the cascades in the same time frame? Why would that be? To me this defies common sense, and have yet to hear a good argument why.

[bobcat]

Why is it so hard to believe that with wolves in Idaho and British Columbia, that they would eventually make their way across the border into Washington? Not to mention, we already had wolves. I saw three in the Chiwawa unit in 1990.

Here is where my BS meter goes off. "IF" wolves naturally migrated We should be seeing a lot more wolves S of I 90 much quicker than we have. We know that wolves packers were in the Psyden unit in the 90's about the same time wolves were reintroduced into ID and YNP. Wolves have moved West a whole lot quicker than they have moved south in the cascades in the same time frame? Why would that be? To me this defies common sense, and have yet to hear a good argument why.

Who knows. If wolves could talk maybe we could ask them. But this whole conspiracy theory of how wolves were planted here- sorry but if they had done that it would not have been a secret.

[Special T]

Look i don't have any evidence, and im not 100% sold that its the WDFW. Something fishy is going on and runs contrary to common sense and obesveration.   Combine that with how the WDFW acts it makes me a firm skeptic.

[jackelope]

It's not that I believe or don't believe they were released. It's that you(wolfbait) have been harping about the evidence you were going to provide us since 2009 and still there's nothing. If they were illegally released, then let's have the evidence so we can string whoever is responsible up. If there's no evidence, then tell us there's no evidence.

[jackelope]

Why is it so hard to believe that with wolves in Idaho and British Columbia, that they would eventually make their way across the border into Washington? Not to mention, we already had wolves. I saw three in the Chiwawa unit in 1990.

Here is where my BS meter goes off. "IF" wolves naturally migrated We should be seeing a lot more wolves S of I 90 much quicker than we have. We know that wolves packers were in the Psyden unit in the 90's about the same time wolves were reintroduced into ID and YNP. Wolves have moved West a whole lot quicker than they have moved south in the cascades in the same time frame? Why would that be? To me this defies common sense, and have yet to hear a good argument why.

I don't believe there's "enough" wolves in that country to force some to move out and continue moving south of I-90.
They'll get there, and when they do...we'll know it. People have been seeing them in the GMU's south of I-90 here and there. They're not going to show up and call a party to announce their presence.
 

[Special T]

I think what Wolfbait has said is that he has MANY eye witness accounts and interviews, however he does not have pictures or video footage. With out that there is no way to move forward legally. That does not mean he doesn't have evidence, just not enough to drag WDFW into court.

[dontgetcrabs]

Who knows. If wolves could talk maybe we could ask them.

WDFW would probably put a bounty on all wolves to shut them up.