Wolf caught snatching a chicken near Colville

[bearpaw]

In the 1950's cougar were shot on site by residents protecting their livestock and bounty hunters took them regularly. There were no sport seasons, no collecting of detailed cougar harvest data, and no such concept existed of poaching cougars, for Aspen to suggest they were poachers is nothing more than laughable. At that time anyone who killed a cougar was a local hero with front page news headlines about such noteworthy deeds.

[AspenBud]

In the 1950's cougar were shot on site by residents protecting their livestock and bounty hunters took them regularly. There were no sport seasons, no collecting of detailed cougar harvest data, and no such concept existed of poaching cougars, for Aspen to suggest they were poachers is nothing more than laughable. At that time anyone who killed a cougar was a local hero with front page news headlines about such noteworthy deeds.

And? Have you been saying this whole time that we should go back to 1950's style cougar management? Just how many years back does your gripe with the state go?

[AspenBud]

Be kind of my guess.  In the 20's and 30's there were bounties on the cougars and some of the houndsmen were getting 50-60 cats annually each.  One of the differences between the old days and these days with cougars, the houndsmen would take the FS roads farther in the backcountry (after the wolves/cougars were hit hard) and were seeking out the cougars in hard to reach areas.  Most of the cougars I hear taken now are close to some kind of development.  (Around farms vs forty miles in on FS roads that are now decommissioned.)

Actually bounties went through the 50's and ended in the 60's. That was why we had the mule deer boom years until cougars multiplied to high levels in the mid 80's and then mule deer started a serious decline. I knew several of the NE WA bounty hunters, Cougar Sam, Bert Edwards, and others. They had some interesting stories.

Yep, and the state was actually getting more cats reported as harvested after the hound ban than they were when the bounty existed. Why?

I can tell you specifically why, but I would rather see you post your reasoning so everyone can have another laugh! 

I don't find this to be a particularly funny argument. You want to blame a state agency for the actions of people who failed to report what they were actually doing or were outright poaching. WDFW can only set limits if they have data to prove that something is or is not working. Historically the harvests they set today have always worked and yet magically the population of cats has exploded. My, I wonder how that happened.

Wrong again Abud, they have reduced harvest in most traditional cougar producing units.

So what? The state still harvests the same number of cats overall unless you want to include unreported cats, in which case you can't blame the state for data they don't have.

When the state averages about 165 reported cats a year as harvested going back decades you can't say they aren't harvesting as many as they used to. That is a lie. You can however say they aren't taking as many relative to the increased population.

Dude, the bottom line is that you don't know jack about cougars. All you have is your emotion and what you thought was enough details to sail through this conversation like you knew what you were talking about. Bottom line, you are BUSTED....

If anyone has nothing but their emotion here it's you. You like facts, okay, here's a FACT, this state has taken just as many mountain lions, overall, as it did prior to the hound ban. You are lying when you say that is not so unless you want to include poached cats. You have a leg to stand on if you want to point to specific units, but not the state as a whole.

[idahohuntr]

Are you guys not just talking past each other here...Aspen says cougar harvest is same as historical harvest, bearpaw is saying more cougars overall...thus the harvest amount is the same as it was pre hound ban but the population has doubled...which would maybe explain why cougar harvest is the same given we lost a very effective method of hunting lions. 

[bearpaw]

Be kind of my guess.  In the 20's and 30's there were bounties on the cougars and some of the houndsmen were getting 50-60 cats annually each.  One of the differences between the old days and these days with cougars, the houndsmen would take the FS roads farther in the backcountry (after the wolves/cougars were hit hard) and were seeking out the cougars in hard to reach areas.  Most of the cougars I hear taken now are close to some kind of development.  (Around farms vs forty miles in on FS roads that are now decommissioned.)

Actually bounties went through the 50's and ended in the 60's. That was why we had the mule deer boom years until cougars multiplied to high levels in the mid 80's and then mule deer started a serious decline. I knew several of the NE WA bounty hunters, Cougar Sam, Bert Edwards, and others. They had some interesting stories.

Yep, and the state was actually getting more cats reported as harvested after the hound ban than they were when the bounty existed. Why?

I can tell you specifically why, but I would rather see you post your reasoning so everyone can have another laugh! 

I don't find this to be a particularly funny argument. You want to blame a state agency for the actions of people who failed to report what they were actually doing or were outright poaching. WDFW can only set limits if they have data to prove that something is or is not working. Historically the harvests they set today have always worked and yet magically the population of cats has exploded. My, I wonder how that happened.

Wrong again Abud, they have reduced harvest in most traditional cougar producing units.

So what? The state still harvests the same number of cats overall unless you want to include unreported cats, in which case you can't blame the state for data they don't have.

When the state averages about 165 reported cats a year as harvested going back decades you can't say they aren't harvesting as many as they used to. That is a lie. You can however say they aren't taking as many relative to the increased population.

Dude, the bottom line is that you don't know jack about cougars. All you have is your emotion and what you thought was enough details to sail through this conversation like you knew what you were talking about. Bottom line, you are BUSTED....

If anyone has nothing but their emotion here it's you. You like facts, okay, here's a FACT, this state has taken just as many mountain lions, overall, as it did prior to the hound ban. You are lying when you say that is not so unless you want to include poached cats. You have a leg to stand on if you want to point to specific units, but not the state as a whole.

It's clear you are again baiting for the type of reply you would like to get.

The fact is that all the traditionally most productive cougar units, mostly northeast units now have low harvest quotas implemented only a few years ago. The state cougar population has doubled per WDFW stats and yet we are taking fewer cougar than just a few years ago. It's my opinion the state should be harvesting 3 times as many cougar if they hope to curtail this continued cougar population increase and particularly if they want to put hundreds of wolves on the landscape who will add to the predation footprint of large predators in WA.

[Special T]

Kain did a great writup and a TON of research on this issue and posted it on here. He used the WDFW's OWN numbers. Aspen Bud is just plain wrong. IF he had taken the time to compare the actual numbers, not some agregate total you will se that Cougars are indeed on the rise and seasons should be loosend like year round hunting, OR the ban on hound hunting should be lifted.

Here are just a few of ther pertinant threads so you wouldnt have to search them out. Note they were all Posted since you have been a member so in theory you could/should have read them.
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,80387.msg1015114.html#msg1015114
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,132247.msg1763328.html#msg1763328

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,76638.msg952988.html#msg952988

[JLS]

I have absolutely no dog in this fight and have no idea if Aspen is a hunter.  Based on his knowledge of grouse hunting I would guess yes.  That said, Aspen's claim that we are harvesting as many cougars statewide after I655 as opposed to before it is correct.

You guys appear to be arguing different points here.

[KFhunter]

In the 1950's cougar were shot on site by residents protecting their livestock and bounty hunters took them regularly. There were no sport seasons, no collecting of detailed cougar harvest data, and no such concept existed of poaching cougars, for Aspen to suggest they were poachers is nothing more than laughable. At that time anyone who killed a cougar was a local hero with front page news headlines about such noteworthy deeds.

True story there

got some news paper photos of my wife's granddad posing downtown with a cougar and a bunch of towns folks gathered around to have a look.

[whitey]

Just got word from My daughter that they seen a few behind there house in Deer Park. They had a little problem a few years ago. It appears the problem is back in a big way.
Sheep and Goats getting attack now.
Time to thin the herd.

[KFhunter]

Just got word from My daughter that they seen a few behind there house in Deer Park. They had a little problem a few years ago. It appears the problem is back in a big way.
Sheep and Goats getting attack now.
Time to thin the herd.

Got them on my place too.   I wanted to put a small flock of blackbellys out but they'd just get ate by wolves.   Wolf fence is crazy expensive when just a couple strands of hot fence will keep in sheep but nooo  I gotta build a 7 foot tall no climb fencing with hot strands on top of that and lay more wire on the ground to keep them from going under...

not worth it, not even close

[jasnt]

 

Just got word from My daughter that they seen a few behind there house in Deer Park. They had a little problem a few years ago. It appears the problem is back in a big way.
Sheep and Goats getting attack now.
Time to thin the herd.

Seeing lots of cougar here. Till 2 years ago I had never seen one. Now I see them once a month it seems

[whitey]

Well Fellas Im heading Your direction once I get out of Mumbai. Loading up the dirt bikes for a little riding up at Beaver Lodge. Riding shotgun with me until I pick my daughter up is My AR-15 just incase I get a chance for some target practice.

[AspenBud]

I have absolutely no dog in this fight and have no idea if Aspen is a hunter.  Based on his knowledge of grouse hunting I would guess yes. 

Correct

That said, Aspen's claim that we are harvesting as many cougars statewide after I655 as opposed to before it is correct.

You guys appear to be arguing different points here.

We were, and I let my temper get the best of me. So before the world, sorry Dale, I was out of line.

[AspenBud]

In the 1950's cougar were shot on site by residents protecting their livestock and bounty hunters took them regularly. There were no sport seasons, no collecting of detailed cougar harvest data, and no such concept existed of poaching cougars, for Aspen to suggest they were poachers is nothing more than laughable. At that time anyone who killed a cougar was a local hero with front page news headlines about such noteworthy deeds.

True story there

got some news paper photos of my wife's granddad posing downtown with a cougar and a bunch of towns folks gathered around to have a look.

My Dad has told me stories about going into a tavern in Pacific County with his Dad back in the late 40's/early 50's and seeing dead cougars shot by the proprietor of the establishment hanging by the entrance. No one gave it a second thought.

[idahohuntr]

You guys appear to be arguing different points here.

We were, and I let my temper get the best of me.

Well thats never happened on hunt-wa before    Glad you are back