Elk with Hoof Rot in Snoqualmie Valley, King County

[Bob33]

I'm not really sure what is causing hoof rot, but like many  here id like to know.

What i would like to know is WHY its such a bad thing to ask hard questions and challenge the WDFW?

In my business i have many different kinds of working relationships. Some are very healthy and when we do deals we don't worry about getting too deep in the details because there is a lot of trust. Some are new and we are "Courting" trying to figure out what kind of person the other is, and Several are adversarial relationships. We play chess against each other.

I would say its our DUTY to ask hard questions and do what we can to try and solve problems, and to challenge things that don't make sense. The WDFW has gotten a pass from hunters for a LOooong time because we have been too disorganized. That is changing so that means they are going to have to answer questions, or we will likely need to be more hostile like the greenies have been... The WDFW does not seem to realize that we sportsmen can either be their biggest asset, or their PIA and really the choice is up to them.

I'm not aware of anyone suggesting that questions shouldn't be asked. Who said that?

"Some are very healthy and when we do deals we don't worry about getting too deep in the details because there is a lot of trust."

When you call people "snake oil salesmen", does that build the type of trust relationship you refer to?

[idahohuntr]

I'm not really sure what is causing hoof rot, but like many  here id like to know.

What i would like to know is WHY its such a bad thing to ask hard questions and challenge the WDFW?

In my business i have many different kinds of working relationships. Some are very healthy and when we do deals we don't worry about getting too deep in the details because there is a lot of trust. Some are new and we are "Courting" trying to figure out what kind of person the other is, and Several are adversarial relationships. We play chess against each other.

I would say its our DUTY to ask hard questions and do what we can to try and solve problems, and to challenge things that don't make sense. The WDFW has gotten a pass from hunters for a LOooong time because we have been too disorganized. That is changing so that means they are going to have to answer questions, or we will likely need to be more hostile like the greenies have been... The WDFW does not seem to realize that we sportsmen can either be their biggest asset, or their PIA and really the choice is up to them.

I don't think its bad at all to ask hard questions or press them on important issues.  Much of what I see is not "asking the hard questions"...its refusing to accept the very logical and fact-driven response and then brushing it aside as though wdfw does not care because people are not getting the answers that fulfill their ulterior motives...e.g., reducing herbicide use.

[pianoman9701]

I'm not really sure what is causing hoof rot, but like many  here id like to know.

What i would like to know is WHY its such a bad thing to ask hard questions and challenge the WDFW?

In my business i have many different kinds of working relationships. Some are very healthy and when we do deals we don't worry about getting too deep in the details because there is a lot of trust. Some are new and we are "Courting" trying to figure out what kind of person the other is, and Several are adversarial relationships. We play chess against each other.

I would say its our DUTY to ask hard questions and do what we can to try and solve problems, and to challenge things that don't make sense. The WDFW has gotten a pass from hunters for a LOooong time because we have been too disorganized. That is changing so that means they are going to have to answer questions, or we will likely need to be more hostile like the greenies have been... The WDFW does not seem to realize that we sportsmen can either be their biggest asset, or their PIA and really the choice is up to them.

I don't think its bad at all to ask hard questions or press them on important issues.  Much of what I see is not "asking the hard questions"...its refusing to accept the very logical and fact-driven response and then brushing it aside as though wdfw does not care because people are not getting the answers that fulfill their ulterior motives...e.g., reducing herbicide use.

They've actually had very few answers or for the public. Their targeting treps has been challenged by a variety of scientists as a cause, including the USDA scientist and an expert on leptosporosis. Their claim that the meat is safe for humans while they still maintain they don't know what's causing it is based on neither fact or logic. And again, trying to debunk the testimony of these experts with a representative of the herbicide industry is suggestive of an ulterior motive, especially when to date, none of the toxicologies have tested for agricultural chemicals, according to the WDFW. How many of these hoof disease meetings have you attended, Idaho?

[Special T]

I think the WDFW has trained us to be skeptical. If you or the department think that sportsmen should just accept whatever the department says, then we are not likley to agree anytime in the near future.  When other professionals with credentials have questions or issues with what the WDFW is saying then it IS logical to challenge the department. Otherwise they might have gotten soem where in the last 20 years or so...

I consider Veternarians or professors from WSU to have proper credentials to talk about the issue. Even if it desagrees with the department.

[kentrek]

Much of what I see is not "asking the hard questions"...its refusing to accept the very logical and fact-driven response

Please post up the very logical fact driven response ?

[bbarnes]

The WSU guy Besser didn't even share with the other scientists, that he had found LEPTOSPIROSIS in 4 of the elk sampled.IDAHO in your opinion how did this spread all over the state,in 2 years? You also seem to be a big critic of people questioning forest practice,in this state WHY.Have you looked into what's being sprayed,the amounts,and combinations?Do you work as a forester for DNR?I think we have met when Mark Smith and I visited the DNR office.I would like you to post up how these TOXINS are healthy for all of us.If they weren't harmful why post signs on clear cuts,warning us of dangerous exposure.EAT THAT SANDWICH

[WSU]

Discussions haven't been just localized to SW Wa.  Here is the map WDFW publicizes on its webpage: http://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/health/hoof_disease/graphics/display_gis_all_wa_2_0_rptd_harv_y_v10_1_photo_20140324_wa_only.jpg

I'm not saying WDFW did the right thing by waiting a decade, but they aren't hiding the ball regarding location of sightings either.

[Coastal_native]

Just curious, as I haven't been following this as closesly as others, but does anyone know if they've suggested that some of the outlying more isolated observations from the map might fall into the category of other hoof deformities not necessarily related to the epedemic in SW washington?

[Curly]

Even if herbicides are in no way related to the health problems facing the elk, it sure would be nice to eliminate the practice of spraying.  Sure seems like in this day and age of so many people being on the 100% organic kick and all, that spraying chemicals on thousands of acres of clearcuts every year would garner a look into why keeping those forest practices alive is beneficial.

I think those folks skeptical of herbicides being part of the problem are right to be skeptical since there are professionals in the field claiming there is no link, but at the same time they should understand those people fighting for that aspect to be given a more serious look.  If the working group simply dismisses that option, then they aren't doing due diligence it seems.  And if they just go by one persons opinion (especially if that person is linked to the herbicide industry) then how is that being diligent? 

Too bad there isn't an investigative reporter that could research when herbicide use began and why timber companies prefer to use herbicides.  I'd like to hear from foresters why herbicide use is necessary and what would happen if they weren't allowed to use it anymore.  Can they go back to burning?  Seems like there are benefits to burning (like adding nitrogen to the soil).  Maybe timber should be given tax breaks if they elect not to spray? 

[t6]

Idaho... 

Again with the accusations that anyone questioning WDFW is Grandstanding or looking for notoriety.   How do you figure?   We simply want an honest answer, one that quite obviously has been hidden from the public.

I've even talked with one of ODFW's contract hunters.  After they removed elk from the Tillamook area, ODFW made them sign Non-Disclosure documents. (Which are not legal by the way) 

There is no mention from them or WDFW that Hoof Rot or as ODFW calls it "Bacterial Leg Deformities" in any of their documents. 

You continue to sling the accusation that anyone who questions or investigates the possible link to herbicides must have been "Drinking the Kool-Aid"   

We understand your position, but we want complete disclosure and the truth from WDFW.  I'm sure sportsmen in Oregon will eventually ask the same of ODFW. 

[Coastal_native]

I'm not neccessarily anti herbicide, but I do understand that there are all kinds of environemental laws in place on private landowners that are aimed at protecting public resources.  I'm not sure I agree with the current trade off between economic gain vs. protection of public resources when it comes to the use of herbicides on commercial forests.  Mainly because I don't think we have that good of an understanding as to what those trade offs are...yet.  Dealing with two pretty big industries in the PNW, it'll be that much more difficult to get unbiased information.

[idahohuntr]

IDAHO in your opinion how did this spread all over the state,in 2 years? You also seem to be a big critic of people questioning forest practice,in this state WHY.Have you looked into what's being sprayed,the amounts,and combinations?Do you work as a forester for DNR?I think we have met when Mark Smith and I visited the DNR office.I would like you to post up how these TOXINS are healthy for all of us.If they weren't harmful why post signs on clear cuts,warning us of dangerous exposure.EAT THAT SANDWICH

It is very reasonable to believe that a bacteria has evolved to a strain that is more infectious and which elk as a host are not resistant to...similar in concept to how a variety of flu strains are constantly evolving.  Just a guess...no information to support that.

Im not a critic of people questioning forest practices...I've said multiple times that I see nothing wrong with people wanting to reduce chemicals etc. in the environment...even if there is no link to hoof rot I see many valid reasons to find ways to reduce toxins in our environment.  Similar to your apparent reaction to WDFW responses, you fail to read or correctly interpret what I say and then spin it off into a new conspiracy...this new one being that I am a DNR forester and we met in some Mark guys office...   I do not believe there is a direct link to hoof rot from herbicide use, but you seem so blinded by this herbicide theory that you won't accept any other rational conclusion and it makes me believe that your interest is not elk, but rather curbing herbicide use...which isn't a bad thing...I just don't believe it would solve the hoof rot issue.

And no Mr. Barnes, I will not drink your kool-aid or eat your sandwich.  I'm sorry I'm not a lemming who just blindly follows other lemmings around. 

Much of what I see is not "asking the hard questions"...its refusing to accept the very logical and fact-driven response

Please post up the very logical fact driven response ?

http://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/health/hoof_disease/  This is a good start.  I would also recommend contacting Dr. Mansfield of WDFW.  She could be very helpful in answering your questions as she was in answering mine. 

[Curly]

Does anyone know why on the map of hoof disease, they have dots on there representing "no limping elk"?  That seems kind of odd.......seems like there should be those pink dots all over the map (or none at all).

[pianoman9701]

If they were testing for herbicides at all, maybe fewer of us would have what you refer to as "conspiracy theories". They haven't, so far. That appears from the outside to be research with a hole in it, wouldn't you agree? It's natural to jump to conclusions when there are so many questions created around one aspect of the elk's habitat and none have been addressed. They have no idea what it is or from where it comes but so far, haven't tested for herbicides in the sampled elk. The biologist explanation for that is that they wouldn't find anything. Really? Then why not test for it? I find that incomplete. 

Since the question came up, Idahohntr, what do you do for a living?

[idahohuntr]

If they were testing for herbicides at all, maybe fewer of us would have what you refer to as "conspiracy theories". They haven't, so far. That appears from the outside to be research with a hole in it, wouldn't you agree? It's natural to jump to conclusions when there are so many questions created around one aspect of the elk's habitat and none have been addressed. They have no idea what it is or from where it comes but so far, haven't tested for herbicides in the sampled elk. The biologist explanation for that is that they wouldn't find anything. Really? Then why not test for it? I find that incomplete. 

Since the question came up, Idahohntr, what do you do for a living?

They have strong evidence that the hoof issue is caused by bacteria and no signs of toxicity or trauma in any of the filtering organs (liver, kidney, lungs etc.) which they have inspected and evaluated intensively in necropsied elk with hoof rot.  I see no reason for them to "test" for specific chemichals when there is not a shred of evidence that this is a toxicity issue...from a pr standpoint though maybe they should send tissue samples to a lab to test for atrazine (sp?) 

As far as what I do for a living...not important to this issue at all.  This isn't about me.