Velocity issues with Barnes Triple X handloads

[higunner]

I've been working on hand load development for my Tikka T3 chambered in .338 WM for my September moose hunt in Alaska. Using Barnes volume 4 manual and using the data provided for their 250 grain triple X FB bullet, I started at the minimum, using H4831SC powder.  My C.O.L. was 3.288 and I was able to shoot a .486 group @ 100 yards using 64.5 grains of powder.  I was thrilled until I chronographed the load and learned it was only at 2250 f.p.s at the muzzle.  The manual shows the low end load @ 59.5 grains 2350 f.p.s. and the high end @65.0 grains 2517 f.p.s. I'm not into super high velocities or anything but I knew this was low, but an excellent group for .338 WM.  I called Barnes and spoke to a really nice guy who agreed the velocity was to low.  We reviewed my used components and without coming out at actually saying it, I gathered he recommended bumping up the charge either 1/2 or a whole grain at a time until I achieved between 2400 and 2500 f.p.s. He recommended these velocities for the best bullet performance out to 500 yards.  He did however remind me to check for pressure signs as I proceeded. 

Today I conducted some additional testing, Finally at 71.5 grains of powder I was able to get 2492 f.p.s without any signs if excessive pressure.  I did increase my c.o.l. out to 3.335 to allow for the additional powder.  Now I need to go to the range and she how she groups.

I don't know how to tell what I'm at for load density or if it matters.  I've never experienced this issue.

Any input would be appreciated.   Thanks

[bobcat]

I think I would try a lighter bullet. A 250 grain is on the heavy side for a 338 Win. Mag. and in a Barnes bullet you can afford to go lighter because of the nearly 100% weight retention. Also, the Barnes bullets expand more reliably at higher velocities, so normally when using Barnes bullets (or any 100% copper bullet) I think it's a good idea to step down to a lighter weight.

[Jolten]

What was Barnes testing barrel length? And what's yours?? If they're testing out of a 26" barrel and you're shooting a 24" that could possibly account for some if the fps missing

[higunner]

Thanks Bobcat, I might try the 225 grainer.   Good point

[higunner]

Thanks Jolten, both are 24" barrels

[Jolten]

No problem. I shoot a savage axis .243 in a 20" barrel. Imagine my surprise when it didn't add up. Now I just buy them factory loaded

[higunner]

If the 250's group well, I'll stick with them.  There are no signs of pressure issues.

[bearpaw]

I think I would try a lighter bullet. A 250 grain is on the heavy side for a 338 Win. Mag. and in a Barnes bullet you can afford to go lighter because of the nearly 100% weight retention. Also, the Barnes bullets expand more reliably at higher velocities, so normally when using Barnes bullets (or any 100% copper bullet) I think it's a good idea to step down to a lighter weight.

I've been loading some .338 160gr Barness TTSX and have seen one bear killed in his tracks thus far. I plan to try them on another animal soon. Amazing velocity, less recoil, and flat shooting. I also have some 185's to try too.

A friend and his dad shot two elk with 250's at around 400 yards and recovered the bullets which barely mushroomed. I would recommend a lighter weight ttsx to get more speed. 

[higunner]

Thanks Bearpaw

[higunner]

I'm 6 1/2 grains over Barnes recommended max and still shooting less f.p.s?,,,

[higunner]

Thanks cboom

[bearpaw]

You might take some photos of the brass and post them for others to look at! 

[bobcat]

Velocity is your best indicator of pressure. If you're getting the same or nearly the same velocity as Barnes with their max load, then your load should be perfectly safe.

[bobcat]

I guess another thought is how do you know your chronograph is giving accurate readings?

[higunner]

Thanks guys.   I'm gonna try a different chronograph tomorrow

[Heredoggydoggy]

Load data today is a lot more conservative than it used to be.  This morning I talked to an old benchrest shooter at the range, shooting his 22 Hornet loads, and the first thing he said was: "Well, I guess the lawyers have gotten to the bullet manufacturers, because I went over their maximum load on the data, and still see no signs of excessive pressure."  When he got done shooting, he said his best accuracy was what they called the "Maximum Load".    I was shooting my .219 Donaldson Wasp, and the only load data I could find was out of a real old Hornady manual. 

[Bofire]

  I have been reloading for about 50 years, I have not chronoed every load I developed, BUT I have never gotten published velocity from any handload or factory load I have chronoed. Some were WAY less velocity.
Carl

[higunner]

On 6/24/14 I contacted Barnes again and briefed them on my research.  We discussed the differences in barrels vs. the guns actually tested by bullet makers.  This guy had a seemed to have a ton of knowledge.  He agreed with using overall velocity in this situation, while continuing to check for signs of dangerous pressure.  He confirmed that at 2492 f.p.s, the bullet will perform as designed.   Now I need to hit the range and see how they group.

[mazama]

Ishoot barnes bullets,because of their length I went to a lighter 210barnes,heavy bullets eat up powder space,i use 210 in 338win mag also338rum

[Stein]

Regarding the chrono, they are notoriously inaccurate.  If you shoot some drop tables and know the G7 for that bullet you can use online tools to reverse calculate the actual velocity.

[Heredoggydoggy]

I have been reloading for about 50 years, I have not chronoed every load I developed, BUT I have never gotten published velocity from any handload or factory load I have chronoed. Some were WAY less velocity.
Carl

I've been reloading for over 40 years, and have never even owned a chronograph.  A friend lent me one once, and I was afraid I'd shoot a hole in it, so I gave it back to him--unused!  I reload for accuracy, which is usually way lower than the published velocities. 

[h20hunter]

A bit of a double post since I put the same one up in the elk bullet thread....but....here is a 150 gr .270 that could have used a bit more speed. However, terminal performance was great.

[bod]

You might want to try H4350 or especially RL17.

[mazama]

I use R17 in my 338win mag,i save 4831sc for the338rum.

[Bob33]

Velocity correlates with pressure, but not enough to rely on it exclusively to ensure a load is safe.

http://kwk.us/chronographs.html

[bear nature]

I would try some  mag pro powder it burns a bit faster and will give you the extra velocity you are looking for with the shorter barrel. start charge is 64.5 and max is 72 which would put you around 2620 with a load density of 98% and will give you a more consistant burn. also you might look into your powder, sometimes you can just get a less than great batch or it wasn't stored correctly before you got it. I had some bad powder before and alliance sent me a new can and it corrected itself. I do believe that they do understate max loads to cover their butts, however I would be very very careful going past the recommended max, I have seen guns after someone developed their own load. so my advice is to try some other powder before you try to push the limit, watch your primer close and if it flattens it or bulges it back off! happy reloading

[higunner]

Problem solved, 71 grains of H4831sc 2478 f.p.s. .333" group @ 100 yards no signs of pressure. Done deal.