BP Observations

[Intruder]

OK, I've shot muzzleloaders on a few occasions over the years but never owned 1 or got into hunting w/ 1.  I ended up buying 1 this year to elk hunt in ID.  Here are my observations  and questions:

1.  Great sport that shouldn't be compramised w/ technology... I'm primarily talking scopes.
2.  Can be a real bitch to sight em in.
3.  Effective range (for me) isn't nearly as far as I thought.... 100 is about my max.
4.  Cleaning is a pain in the ass!!
5.  Overall I like it and plan to do it more, but it is more demanding than I realized (figuring out a load, sighting in, cleaning, moisture, blah, blah, blah).

1. Any tips on working up an accurate load?  Powerbelts didn't seem to shoot well out of my gun but my buddy's (also new to the sport) luved em.
2. Will using a different powder improve the dirty, stinky, caustic build up of crap in the gun.... 777, Shockey's powder?
3. Thinkin of gettin a peep... worth it? 

[HawkenBob]

Get rid of the "Black powder" and use 777 od American. I use american and absolutely love it. Its waterproof too.

I shoot my loader about 200 to 400 times a year. I just replaced the sites for th 3rd time. Just cant find one Im happy with for those 100 yrd shots.

Mines a traditional so not as many options. I like the Williams but also have to have a rear with a click adjust. The set screw *censored* is for the birds IMO.

I just put on a T/C fiber optic set up. I had a tru glo and like I said, the set screws were *censored*ty to deal with. Also the back was too brite IMO. The TC has a wrap around so its allot dimmer. More like a soft green glo. Way better. It dosent eat up the front post with its briteness.

Finally, Bullet/powder load size is something you just have to go thru to figure out what works best for you. If the PB"s arnt cutting it try lessning the charge, or increasing it.

Havent used a peep but it may be my next option.

Pain, yes, Ive had the gun for about 15 years now and seem never totally satisfied. But love it still and the challenge.

[Sagedawg]

 Highly advise getting a peep sight. I use a williams on my bighorn. You like it once you get used to it.

 Try a variety of diff bullets, even if you and your buddies are the exact same, they probly wont shoot the same bullet into like sized groups. I like the Buffalo,Dead centers and the Knight Sabot load, all of these are lead and thats what I have built my loads around. Another variable to consider are powder and powder charges. I like T7 in my inlines, but real Swiss in my sidelock. A change of 5 to 10 grains can make a HUGE difference in accuracy one way or another.  T7  is the only BP sub that I like and reccomennd to others. I tried Shockey's gold , and didnt care for it, seemed dirtier and much harder to clean than T7 or reg BP. The T7 offers alot, that makes it easiser to devolpe loads, as well as clean up afterwards.

  BP requires quite abit of time and dedication to get everything working together, but once you find that sweet spot, it is well worth all of the hassel.

Hope this gives you some insight and if you ever need anymore information just let me know.


Sage

[HawkenBob]

Sage, have you tried American? Just wondering what your opinion is on it? Ive shot 3 cans of it now and love it so far. Cleaning is soooo easy and fast.
T7 is a no brainer. Seems everyone loves it.

[CP]

I find a scope to be very useful in working up a load.  It takes me out of the equation and I can see immediately where the shot hit.  It doesn’t have to be a good scope, just something that will hold zero, the higher the power the better. 

[Sagedawg]

HawkenBob,
  No I havent tried the American brand. I would if I could find it around here. I shoot loose powder, and Sportsmans only carries the sticks. When Ive asked them about it the answer is always "we only have what they put on the truck". Not the best answer to give a guy when he's looking to spend some money.

  How do you like it? Do you think its better than T7 velocity wise? I dont shoot over a chrony, so I do abit of load development to get what Im after. I have read than the clean-up is faster. Any issues with the dreader crud ring? And how does it store?


  Sage

[MHWASH]

ALthough I have never used T7. I have read that it was developed with in-lines in mind. There for it requires a more direct and hotter flame to ignite than a side lock-precussion cap can produce.

 
I will be most likely be going back to BP for deer next year.

[rasbo]

I use loose powder with my t/c blackdiamond 110 on the powder and 295 powerbelt works for me.The tru glow sights I love.I shoot well at a hundred but 50 yrds is all I will shot at an animal.Its a sneak thing with me.When I get to where I cant get within 50 yrds its rifle time.Thats just me..My own preference..so dont you guys go jumping me and hurting my feelings

[Sagedawg]

MH,

    My sidelock has been converted to shoot musket caps, and when I first changed it over I shot 10 to 15 shots with loose T7. Didnt have a problem, never mis fired, but I havent tried to do that with the pellets out of the same gun.  I bet it would increase the mis fires just because of flame travel and the spark isnt going into loose powder . Now you got me to thinking I need to try it and Ill keep you guys posted.


  Sage

[Intruder]

I find a scope to be very useful in working up a load.  It takes me out of the equation and I can see immediately where the shot hit.  It doesn’t have to be a good scope, just something that will hold zero, the higher the power the better. 

A buddy recommened the same thing.  Use a scope to get your load work out then put the open/peep back on to dial it in. 

Thanks to everyone for the good advice.  I'm definitely going to try a different powder and get a peep.

BTW.... What's American brand powder... just a variation of T7?

[MHWASH]

Sage,

 Let us know what you find out. I am by no means an expert, I just do a lot of research on the web when I get interested in something.

 I've only tried two powders, The real thing and Pyrodex. I've had less mis-fires with the BP. I hunted BP two years ago and lft my rifle loaded the whole late season. Well except when I missed the first day. It either raining or snowing the whole time nad I still did not have a mis-fire.

[Sagedawg]

Will do MH.



  Sage

[Intruder]

I figured out that the American brand is the stuff Shockey endorses.  Thought they were 2 different animals at first.

Is T7 and the American stuff legal as long as they are loose?  I know some states don't let you shoot pellets but I don't know if there are limitations on the actual powder.... I'm assuming they fall in that broad category of BP substitute that the states define as legal. 

[Sagedawg]

 I think most states allow any BP subs, but like you have stated, you make have to use loose to be legal. I think the pellet form are great when you are first starting out, but shooting the loose gives many more options. Sorry I missed getting back to you about the American brand.


   Sage

[HawkenBob]

Sage, to adress your question, I love the American. Its easy cleaning and low fouling. Ive got as many as 30 shots before cleaning. It seems to work really good out of my TC Hawken.

This weekend I shot some T7. My buddy shoots an inline and it seemed to be a really fast burn. His inline sounded like a rifle. Mine has that Ba-Boom, 2 stage kinda sound. I suspect it was due to his inline igniting faster.

I thought the T7 was fine. Is way spendier though. And its FFG is about half the grain size of the American. Ill shoot the bottle this year to see more how I like it. Only one more week of hunting for me...then more range firing.

I want to compare Dead centers to PB's this winter. 

But right now American Pioneer is my powder.

[Sagedawg]

 HawkenBob, I really like the Dead Centers, very accurate out of my Bighorn. The PB's were all over the place, but I have a buddy that uses them with good results. Dont know where your located but the Sportsmans Whse, have their name on some of the Dead Center, and are the same just not as spendy. I have some at home, Ill look and send you the name and load Im using. Might give you a starting point.


  Sage

[Intruder]

I was checking out some forums on BP stuff and there was quite abit out there on 777, Goex Pinnacle, and American Pioneer.  Here as summary of what I was able to gather(for what it is worth):
1. Shockey's powder and the Goex Pinnacle are essentially the same thing. American Pioneer supposedly makes both. 
2. Both of those powders are cleaner than anything out there but not quite as hot.
3. The standard American Pioneer has very mixed reviews (more than you'd expect).  Some luv some hate.... virtually no in between.   
4.  Shockey and Goex Pinnacle are generally well liked although the grain size makes volume measuring harder w/ them.  FFFg is more like FFg in other things.  I believe this is true for all Am Pio stuff.
5.  All of the American Pioneer stuff seems to be a little overhyped.  The technology employeed has been around for awhile and marketed under different names over the years.  Overall it appears to be good stuff but not quite what is advertised (big shock there  ).   
6. T7 has by far the widest following.  Though not quite as clean as the others mentioned the concensus is that it is the most consistant and definitely hottest.     

[HawkenBob]

Im gonna shoot T7 and American Friday morn. T7 being hotter, would certainly explain the sharp crack as compared to the Ba-boom of my TC. I only shot the T7 once and so Ill start to compare accuracy this friday.

Sage, as far as storage, Ive never had an issue. I went thru 3 cans this year so far. And now have a can of T7. I probably go thru it more than most, but I shoot my TC all year long.

Ill also review the cleaning of the rifle. I know American is a breeze to clean. Im very impressed after a year of use. as far as the crud ring, its more attributed to the T7. The American seems very clean. (burns slower?) I know Pyrodex also is very good at no crud ring. It seems the hotter the primer, the less crud ring. And these are HOT 209's. Washington law requires less, so crud rings from T7 are very likely Id suspect with 11's and musket caps.

[CP]

Yep, no 209 = a crude ring with T7 but it is still better than Pyrodex.  Hodgdons doesn’t recommend using T7 without 209 primers but then we don’t have much choice. 

I was shooting up the last of my pyrodex last week, I had forgotten how dirty and stinky it is.  Also had a couple hang-fires.  I don’t remember ever having a hang-fire with T7. 

I’ve never tried American, I’ll have to give it try.

[HawkenBob]

FYI, American is also almost a white in color. Actually light grey. So it dosent have that black dusty mess. Its very clean even to handle.

[Intruder]

Im gonna shoot T7 and American Friday morn. T7 being hotter, would certainly explain the sharp crack as compared to the Ba-boom of my TC. I only shot the T7 once and so Ill start to compare accuracy this friday.
Ill also review the cleaning of the rifle. I know American is a breeze to clean. Im very impressed after a year of use. as far as the crud ring, its more attributed to the T7.

Cool.  I'll be really interested to hear your experience.

What's a crud ring?

[Sagedawg]

Unburnt powder . It collects down at the breechplug area, and a real PITA to get clean. Not supposed to happen with 209, but I havent been able to confirm that.



  Sage

[Intruder]

Unburnt powder . It collects down at the breechplug area, and a real PITA to get clean. Not supposed to happen with 209, but I havent been able to confirm that.
  Sage

On guns w/ interchangeable nipples couldn't just change out to a 209 nipple and fire a couple through it.  Still kinda a PITA though I guess.

[HawkenBob]

Actually it even happens with 209's. Guys are using the hotter 209's and its cutting it down more.

[Sagedawg]

Didnt someone bring out a 209 primer just for the T7? I think I saw something about that a year or so ago.



  Sage

[CP]

The crude ring is easy to remove with a damp patch if you don’t let it get grow too big.

I find that I need to clean my inline after two shots or it will affect the accuracy.  I can shoot my sidelock with round balls all day without cleaning because the patch on the new round knocks off the fouling from the last round. 

[Intruder]

HBob.... did you get out and shoot last Fri?

[HawkenBob]

I did, but I have to be honest, the urge to hit the mountains for the last weekend of Deer hit me harder. So instead of shooting at the range I went hunting Friday morn. Then drove a few miles out of the area and proceeded to shoot. I had limited number of shots though because I was not going to be able to clean the gun for the evening bite. I didn’t want to gum it up too bad.
 
So from limited shots I do have this to say so far. T7 is a way faster shooting powder! My Hawken sounded like a rifle. The first shot actually startled me it was so quick. I only shot 3 shots of T7 and two of the American. From what I saw, accuracy was about even. But nothing really to compare.
I also will add that I did change my rear sight again last week before hunting/shooting so Im about 4” high and rt @100 yards. And still need to dial it in before I can really produce a apples to apples comparison.

On another note one thing I do notice is the power belts seem to stray once in a while. Again, I need more time to tell for sure but Im pretty darn confident it aint me. I’ve heard others say this as well.

Im gonna get her dialed, then shoot some PB’s too. But right now a saboted 260 grainer has been the most accurate…so I guess, stay tuned for more. I want to get out to the range Friday morn. With hunting over for me, Ill definitely be shooting now on Fridays until I get something really good worked up. Unless the rivers are in steelhead shape.
Anybody else shoot Gig harbor Sportsman club?

[deaddog]

Get rid of the "Black powder" and use 777 od American. I use american and absolutely love it. Its waterproof too.

I shoot my loader about 200 to 400 times a year. I just replaced the sites for th 3rd time. Just cant find one Im happy with for those 100 yrd shots.

Mines a traditional so not as many options. I like the Williams but also have to have a rear with a click adjust. The set screw *censored* is for the birds IMO.

I just put on a T/C fiber optic set up. I had a tru glo and like I said, the set screws were *censored*ty to deal with. Also the back was too brite IMO. The TC has a wrap around so its allot dimmer. More like a soft green glo. Way better. It dosent eat up the front post with its briteness.

Finally, Bullet/powder load size is something you just have to go thru to figure out what works best for you. If the PB"s arnt cutting it try lessning the charge, or increasing it.

Havent used a peep but it may be my next option.

Pain, yes, Ive had the gun for about 15 years now and seem never totally satisfied. But love it still and the challenge.

Hey HawkenBob  could you explain how the american is water proof? I have never used it, always been a triple-7 guy. A waterproof powder would be too cool. thanks

[bobcat]

Hey HawkenBob  could you explain how the american is water proof? I have never used it, always been a triple-7 guy. A waterproof powder would be too cool. thanks

I'm not sure waterproof would be the correct term. American Pioneer does claim it cleans up easily with nothing but water, maybe that's what HawkenBob meant to say. I have never tried AP and don't plan to because of the many bad reviews I've read. Here is one for you all to read:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/american_pioneer_powder.htm

[HawkenBob]

Well, its actually says its waterproof. I dont trust it is. but it does claim it is.

[HawkenBob]

That is a terrible review. I really like the stuff. I never chrono'd it though. My best shooting is with a 260 grn sabot. 100 grns of AP. Shooting about 4 inch grp at 100 yrds. Its clean and easy. I thought it was the greatest thing ever, but now that I have the T7 to try we'll certainly see...

[bobcat]

Well I'm glad it works for you. I just don't have the time/money to test different powders, so I go with Triple 7 which doesn't seem to have any negative qualities, other than maybe the possible "crud ring."

[jdb]

what kinda groups are you guys getting with your ML's? I normaly shoot mine at 75 yards and 3 shot groups are normaly in the 1.5 to 2" range seems good to me what do you think?

[CP]

I can consistently keep under 2” @ 100 with my inline, with a scope, off a bench, lots of sandbags.  My round ball shooter is considerably less consistent than that