How should we manage our Mule Deer in WA?

[huntnphool]

We need statewide coyote rules for cougar and bear.  24/7 365 hunting predators

 Does anyone have any actual attainable suggestions?

vastly increase hound permits for cougar in Mule deer impacted areas.
Increase spring draw permits for bear in Mule deer impacted areas, introduce bear 2nd tag in NE WA. 
Increase cougar yearly bag limits for Mule deer impacted areas.
Introduce 2nd Cougar tag for Mule deer impact areas.
Allow hunters to draw for special use hound permits without proving they own hounds, and let them hire a hound hunter to help fulfill the tag in Mule deer impact areas.
Open special permits for bear baiting in mule deer impact areas.



There's no money in this for conservation groups, it's far more profitable to net in habitat projects.  Keep herds struggling and keep money flowing in for recovery efforts.

 The key word in my question is "attainable".

 Which one, if any, of your above suggestions are realistic?

[KFhunter]

The hound permits are already in place, albeit poorly managed.  This could be a good focus and with some pressure perhaps it could be expanded and managed better.

[huntnphool]

 How many of you read the wolf proposal in its entirety? I posted several parts of it and warned everyone what was going to happen, and it's coming to fruition.

 "The hunting seasons may necessarily need to be adjusted"

 This is all part of their plan, the only "adjustments" that are going to be made are to our hunting seasons........period!

[bobcat]

We need statewide coyote rules for cougar and bear.  24/7 365 hunting predators

 Does anyone have any actual attainable suggestions?

How about this: seasonal road closures, beginning just after the general mule deer season ends, and continuing through winter. This would help to alleviate tribal harvest and poaching.

We all know it's very unlikely that seasons and/or limits on predators will become more liberal. If anything, they will become more restricted. So the best thing that can be done immediately is to reduce human harvest.

I think gating all the prime mule deer winter range would be a good first step.

[Skyvalhunter]

So the best thing that can be done immediately is to reduce human harvest.

  Yea we have way too many humans harvested as it is. 

[bearpaw]

We need statewide coyote rules for cougar and bear.  24/7 365 hunting predators

 Does anyone have any actual attainable suggestions?

How about this: seasonal road closures, beginning just after the general mule deer season ends, and continuing through winter. This would help to alleviate tribal harvest and poaching.

We all know it's very unlikely that seasons and/or limits on predators will become more liberal. If anything, they will become more restricted. So the best thing that can be done immediately is to reduce human harvest.

I think gating all the prime mule deer winter range would be a good first step.

I disagree about predators, I think expanded predator seasons are attainable. We must keep hammering away with a consistent message to expand seasons and use all the cougar problems, wolf sightings, and herd declines as supporting arguments. We may not get hound hunting and we may not get wolf hunting right away, but with all the cougar problems and specific herd problems eventually they will not be able to defend Weilgus' failed cougar philosophy (his conclusions from his studies). A different person can look at the data from his cougar study and draw different conclusion, his conclusion is being proven incorrect.

I don't have a problem closing key winter range, but I don't want to see all areas simply locked up because we think it might help save 1 or 2 deer. There are other factors that will produce more results (1 cougar eats 25-50 deer per year)and there are people who like to get out and recreate in the winter. Sherman Pass in GMU 101 is a perfect example, all that winter range on the east slope has been locked up every winter for decades, there are so many predators that mule deer continue to decline anyway, all that winter range is way under utilized.

Highway signage/fencing in heavy deer areas and awareness programs to reduce feral dog damage might help.

Winter feeding during harsh winters can prevent large herd reductions when done properly. That is a huge factor, if we can prevent large winter reductions then we don't get into these situations where herds are reduced to the point they cannot recover with the large existing predator populations.

There is some great info regarding winter feeding here: http://www.idahoforwildlife.com/files/pdf/georgeDovel/The%20Outdoorsman%20No%20%201%20March%202004%20Big%20game%20feeding%20in%20Idaho.pdf

[bearpaw]

How many of you read the wolf proposal in its entirety? I posted several parts of it and warned everyone what was going to happen, and it's coming to fruition.

 "The hunting seasons may necessarily need to be adjusted"

 This is all part of their plan, the only "adjustments" that are going to be made are to our hunting seasons........period!

I have read every page in the past, you are correct. That's why we must remain vocal, there are points to argue as mentioned in my previous posts. Idaho increased cougar/bear harvest to mitigate wolf impacts until they could manage wolves and they are still increasing cougar/bear harvest along with wolf harvest, WA will be forced to do the same or suffer consequences that are certain to come. We are being heard, we must continue to be vocal and point out every detail we can regarding predator impacts in WA.

[DeerMan]

There are a lot of factors that go into this and many of the prior stated opinions/suggestions I'm sure would help. In my mind it really boils down to a few key things that out way most other factors.

I can remember 10-15 years ago the amount of deer that I would see while hunting was significantly more. I don't think that the deer have gotten any wiser, in fact their range and habitat has significantly decreased if anything. I believe that the increase in predator population, specifically cougars & wolves, have played a HUGE role in negatively impacting the deer/elk population........and much more that what the state is willing to admit. Any outdoorsman who spends a little bit of time in the timber each year can attest to this. Another big impact I believe is just the fact that the state has cut the number of wardens and enforcement personnel to keep poachers and violaters on alerts. I think if they were to close and lock more gates and actually force people to get out of their truck, strap up their boots and actually hike a few miles, the number of "illegally taken" animals would greatly reduce. This would affect all hunters including the tribal ones who I believe are a big piece of the problem because they are ALLOWED to run free.

[turbo]

I agree with allot being said here but it's hard to have hope in this state and anyone that says we don't have a predator problem here has cashed in their credibility for me. My question is how much are we going to take? It is my opinion that this is all a plan by a lot of engrained activists within the system to get us out of the woods and regulate or eliminate hunting. Where's my tin foil?

But, one topic I don't see discussed enough here and it's in this thread, is how many dead 2 points do you really know of or have seen? I have personally seen 6 deer 2 points shot dead in the woods in the Methow and 1 dead 2 point elk in the LT. And, always near a road!

We have to find a solution for this in my opinion. I bet if we did a poll there would be a shocking number of known unethical shots resulting in found dead 2 points in the woods. It's really sucks.

Maybe if we had a system of something like if you have an "accident" (BS) and make a "bad shot" you can turn yourself in, pay a steep fine, keep your animal and have to go through hunter safety again or 3 strikes your out. Something like that. Or, change the branched antler requirements. I think it's a huge problem mostly being over looked.

It's just one piece of the puzzle but I'm for dramatic changes in the short-term for long lasting results long-term.

[Dhoey07]

A couple years ago Inland empire paper gated the southside of Mica, the hike in is a fairly steep grade and a decent distance.  I always wonder how that has effected the animal population.  I didn't spend anytime up there before they gated it so I don't really have a base to go off of but I think that it would have to help  I know that some people have info on the before and after but I wouldn't blame them for not sharing the info

[huntnphool]

How many of you read the wolf proposal in its entirety? I posted several parts of it and warned everyone what was going to happen, and it's coming to fruition.

 "The hunting seasons may necessarily need to be adjusted"

 This is all part of their plan, the only "adjustments" that are going to be made are to our hunting seasons........period!

I have read every page in the past, you are correct. That's why we must remain vocal, there are points to argue as mentioned in my previous posts. Idaho increased cougar/bear harvest to mitigate wolf impacts until they could manage wolves and they are still increasing cougar/bear harvest along with wolf harvest, WA will be forced to do the same or suffer consequences that are certain to come.

 But what are the consequences? I honestly believe the cards are falling exactly where WDFW want them to fall. Increased predator populations, declining ungulate populations, resulting in fewer and fewer hunting seasons, ultimately closing hunting off to only a lucky few each year in some sort of high priced drawings, and creating "natural balance" in nature.

[bigmacc]

A couple years ago Inland empire paper gated the southside of Mica, the hike in is a fairly steep grade and a decent distance.  I always wonder how that has effected the animal population.  I didn't spend anytime up there before they gated it so I don't really have a base to go off of but I think that it would have to help  I know that some people have info on the before and after but I wouldn't blame them for not sharing the info

I,ll throw in a little here,and it may be longwinded because this is in stages to really get the picture of where were at today(IMHO)...here we go---as far as the methow goes my grandparents started hunting there when there wernt alot of roads,the early 1900,s and the family still hits it hard til this day(along with other areas in eastern washington).Back then until the 70,s when the pass was completed not alot of people even knew were Winthrop was.It was just a little town at the end of the road and alot of the people hunting the valley (pre north cascade pass days) were locals,friends of locals(which my family was) and people who were informed hunters and alot of those hunters knew each other and knew were the others hunted and stayed out of there way thru respect,heck my great granparents had a huge camp at one time of family and friends that was called "little Bellingham",about 7 or 8 familys in one big camp and they hiked,not drove out of it every day to hunt and everyone had there own spots.It was nothing to see 200 head a day.It was a 2 day trip to get over there back then from Bellingham,spending one night in Cashmere, it was pre I-5 and stevens pass was gravel.Now forward to the north cascades pass opening. Tourism was on the rise and soon the secret was out about this beautiful valley and its abundant wildlife,folks just drove the roads that were punched in during logging ops and were shooting deer from the roads,they would tell a friend and they would tell a friend and soon there were hunters on every rock and camps up every road.About the time my dad started talking to Jim and Sig(the game guys at the time)about road closers was when my dad had hiked into one of his favorite spots and hiked out a different way and came upon 5 motorhomes parked and camped smack dab in one of the migration routes that a road had been cut in.They had some beautiful bucks hanging and one of the guys told him that it was there first time over and then bragged how they shot all 8 bucks from there lawn chairs! Now you still had predator hunting back then without alot of the restrictions we have today so the herd kept plugging along but it didnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that with the influx of all these new hunters and them telling others and and them others, along with all those roads with motorhomes and camp trailors parked in key migration routes and 2 or 3 week seasons that would run into November that all this easy access was not going to be good for deer numbers.After many drives,phone conversations and meetings with Jim and Sig alot of roads were gated and locked, I,m not saying it is all because of my dad but those guys respected his knowledge and his passion for the deer in this valley and they listened. Ive said it before in a different thread and i,ll say it again thats when they were the Washington State GAME Dept and not WDFW and the herd over there was there pride and joy.Now forward to today,roads have been gated (but i still think more needs to be) and you have alot more people living over there(i remember as a kid looking up in the hills and seeing just a few flickering lights in the distance,now the hills are covered with lights),along with all the new residents are people who dont hunt and some are actually anti-hunting(its not the old guard anymore who are the majority in this valley),you have restrictions on hunting predators,who,s population is exploding and a new apex predator is on the scene.Put all this together along with the herds priority getting lost in the shuffle of lots of other interests and concerns of handfuls of groups and government programs,politics etc and i think there is somewhat of a bleek outlook for the deer in this valley i,m afraid. Its a far cry from the deer numbers of old and continues to slide downhill, i,ve seen some significant declines in just the last 7 to 10 years.....as always,just my opinion and my 
 

[huntnphool]

A couple years ago Inland empire paper gated the southside of Mica, the hike in is a fairly steep grade and a decent distance.  I always wonder how that has effected the animal population.  I didn't spend anytime up there before they gated it so I don't really have a base to go off of but I think that it would have to help  I know that some people have info on the before and after but I wouldn't blame them for not sharing the info

Its a far cry from the deer numbers of old and continues to slide downhill, i,ve seen some significant declines in just the last 7 to 10 years.....

 And how do you see it after todays announcement?
 

[bigmacc]

A couple years ago Inland empire paper gated the southside of Mica, the hike in is a fairly steep grade and a decent distance.  I always wonder how that has effected the animal population.  I didn't spend anytime up there before they gated it so I don't really have a base to go off of but I think that it would have to help  I know that some people have info on the before and after but I wouldn't blame them for not sharing the info

Its a far cry from the deer numbers of old and continues to slide downhill, i,ve seen some significant declines in just the last 7 to 10 years.....

 And how do you see it after todays announcement?

Just got home from work phool,what was todays announcement?....almost afraid to know

[bigmacc]

A couple years ago Inland empire paper gated the southside of Mica, the hike in is a fairly steep grade and a decent distance.  I always wonder how that has effected the animal population.  I didn't spend anytime up there before they gated it so I don't really have a base to go off of but I think that it would have to help  I know that some people have info on the before and after but I wouldn't blame them for not sharing the info

Its a far cry from the deer numbers of old and continues to slide downhill, i,ve seen some significant declines in just the last 7 to 10 years.....

 And how do you see it after todays announcement?

Just got home from work phool,what was todays announcement?....almost afraid to know :

Got it,just responded on the fire thread.