AKC has lost it.

[jetjockey]

The VP has come out against E-collar training!  It has caused an uproar amongst the field community!  I sincerely hope the Brit folks do the same thing as many of the GSP folks, and completely walk away from the AKC.  There has been rumor for some time about moving to the AF only, and maybe this will put them over the edge.  I'm all for letting the AKC wither on the vine and only supporting American Field.

[Happy Gilmore]

AF is really influential on the West Coast

when you train and run your own dog from where you live you might come up with a different view of the little world.

[Blackjaw]

There isn't much option for flushing spaniels (Springers and Cockers). AKC Field Trials, Hunt Tests, or??

[jetjockey]

AF is really influential on the West Coast

when you train and run your own dog from where you live you might come up with a different view of the little world.

That's because the west coast has very little influence in the pointing dog world. When was the las time an AF NC came from the west coast?  If you want to support an organization who would like to erode your rights, feel free to continue to support the AKC.  I however, would much prefer to support an organization who's only goal is to support hunting dogs.  There's a reason the GSP folks split from the AKC, and most the Pointer and Setter guys don't even register with AKC.  With the AKC's current stance, many more pointing dog breeds will as well.  If it weren't for the ABC Brit Nationals, I wouldn't even register my litter with the AKC.  Since all the Brit Championships are already dual sanctioned, walking away from the AKC would  be a non issue for the field dogs.  Of course the show dog people, the ones who run the AKC, might have an issue with that.  But 99% of their dogs suck anyways.  That's why the AKC Pointer and Setter Nationals is considered a joke. 

[Special T]

Interesting... JJ besides  E collars what other things make AKC less sporting dog friendly?

[jetjockey]

There isn't much option for flushing spaniels (Springers and Cockers). AKC Field Trials, Hunt Tests, or??

Not now, but that will change if the AKC keeps up what they are doing.  Like I said, in the Pointing dog world, the Ponter and Setter guys already have nothig to do with the AKC.  The GSP folks have split, and there is a lot of people who want to do the same in the Brit world.  Those are the 4 biggest pointing breeds by number in the US.

[jetjockey]

Interesting... JJ besides  E collars what other things make AKC less sporting dog friendly?

It's not they are necessarily less sporting dog friendly, it's the fact that sporting dogs are not their top priority.  Go look at an AF pointer, and compare it to an AKC show pointer.  Same thing with springers, Weims, cockers, etc.  When the show people take over, the field ability of the dog is no longer the top concern.  How many AKC hunting breeds have had the hunt bred out of them so they look better in the show ring?  LOTS!!    That's the problem with the AKC.  Now, some will say the AKC is just a registering organization, but that's BS.  If they were, they wouldn't be coming out against E-collars when they have no idea how they work.

[Blackjaw]

Yeah we are little guys in the grand scheme of things. I know there are others besides me that would like more options.

In regard to your last post. Are there other breeds besides cockers and springers that are pushing (or have tried to push) for an official split between field bred and show bred?

[jetjockey]

I'm not sure if there has been any lookig for an official split, but you don't have to look to far to see what the priorities are.  Watch the Westminster dog show some time and look at the sporting breeds.  It's obvious most of those dogs are not being bred to retain any of their hunting characteristics.

[jetjockey]

Here's my question.  E-collars have been baned in many parts if the world, and there was even a push in CA years ago to ban them there.  Which side of the fence will the AKC fall on?

[Bluemoon]

I try to stay out of these kinds of topics, but sometimes I can't so with that being said.  Jet you stated that AF promotes hunting dogs then why did NAVHDA break away from them because AF took a stand against shooting and killing birds.  It is quite easy to to train a dog to stand there pop a popgun then watch the bird fly away.  It is another thing to teach a dog to stand through wing and shot and retrieve to hand.  What good is a hunting dog that can't retrieve?  I also take offense to you saying that AKC National Championships are a joke.  Having won 4 of them with 3 different dogs was not a joke.  Especially when you say AF people don't go to them.  Then why did I beat Ritche Robinson, the late Dave King and many other AF people at these event who were there with strings of great dogs?
I do agree with you that the AKC is becoming a joke.  Many of us now state it stands for " All Kinds of Cash" but it does have it place.  There are many people who can't take weeks off to go to a AF event or can't afford a Pro to train, run and handle their dogs.  So the AKC venues is all they have.  It does not make their dogs any less of a bird dog. Just please consider the whole picture before you get on your soap box.
Regards
 

[jetjockey]

No disrespect, but the AKC Pointer and Setter Nationals is a joke.  How do you quantify a breed National champion when the best dogs of that breed aren't even there?  Most of the top Pointers and Setters arent AKC registered.  As far as hunting goes, field trials were set up to compare the best hunting dogs.  Down here in the South, were trials started, pointed dogs point, and retrieving dogs retrieve.  It's still that way on many of the old plantations.  Cockers, springers, and the occasional lab all retrieved the birds killed over completely broke pointers and setters.  Hunting has changed, but the traditional field trials have stayed the same.  As far as the people you beat in trials, are you speaking of Mr King from GA, who passed last year or the year before?

As far as AF vs NAVHDA is concerned, who knows why NAVHDA broke away.  Many, if not most of the AF trials held down here in the South are ran on wild birds.  #1.  You can't shoot wild birds out of season, so trial season would be very short if you were required to.  #2.  In a big trial, 1 single trial would decimate the wild bird population.  Is that good stewardship?  Does NAVHDA run on wild birds?  Nope.  So How does  running dogs on planted birds promote good bird dogs?   

[Bluemoon]

I am not sure about the Setters on how they run their Nationals.  When I was running Pointers in AKC trials their Nationals were open to AF pointers with a Win or R/U and or a Derby win.  So we were running against the best of the best.  Yes,  that is the Mr. King I was referring about he was a very good man in my book and a tragic loss to the dog world.
I will also state that my Pointers are both AF and AKC registered.  I am now on my 4th generation of my own breedings and my foundation dog was out of Bly Spy Master and Nevada Hankette which were both AF National Champions.  I by choice chose to run AKC events because of the politics of AF trials which is a whole topic on it's own.  Now the only thing that is important to me is having the best possible guide dogs there is for our clients to make their hunting experience the best it can be..May you and your new pups win many trials and Nat. CH's.   

[jetjockey]

Mr King was not an AF guy.  He ran his GSP's in mostly AKC weekend trials and the occasional AF GSP trial.  He was a great person.  I've met him, know people who had dogs with him, and seen his dogs run.  He was not however, an AF guy.  AF guys don't run their dogs in AKC trials, not even the AKC Nationals.  Well, maybe the West coast AF guys do, but the Pointer and Setter guys down here in The South certainly don't.  And they hunt their AF AA and SD dogs during the hunting season, so most every AF dog down here has had lots of birds killed over them.  That may be differe in the West coast, but the top dogs out here all get birds killed over them and are trained to the highest level of steadiness.

That doesn't change the fact that the AKC seems to be supporting issues that are contrary to the hunting dog crowds best interests.   Getting AF sanctioned trials would be very easy on the West coast, and no different then what has happened on the East coast.  You can run weekend trials under AF as well as Championships.

[Bluemoon]

I'm done,  If you read your post you contradict yourself many times.  And I'm not looking to debate.
Last I checked this was Hunt Washington not Hunt the South.  I only trialed for 35 years and ran and trained my own dogs not write a check and become an expert. 
Enjoy your trial season.
Nuff said!!!