AKC has lost it.

[jetjockey]

The VP has come out against E-collar training!  It has caused an uproar amongst the field community!  I sincerely hope the Brit folks do the same thing as many of the GSP folks, and completely walk away from the AKC.  There has been rumor for some time about moving to the AF only, and maybe this will put them over the edge.  I'm all for letting the AKC wither on the vine and only supporting American Field.

[Happy Gilmore]

AF is really influential on the West Coast

when you train and run your own dog from where you live you might come up with a different view of the little world.

[Blackjaw]

There isn't much option for flushing spaniels (Springers and Cockers). AKC Field Trials, Hunt Tests, or??

[jetjockey]

AF is really influential on the West Coast

when you train and run your own dog from where you live you might come up with a different view of the little world.

That's because the west coast has very little influence in the pointing dog world. When was the las time an AF NC came from the west coast?  If you want to support an organization who would like to erode your rights, feel free to continue to support the AKC.  I however, would much prefer to support an organization who's only goal is to support hunting dogs.  There's a reason the GSP folks split from the AKC, and most the Pointer and Setter guys don't even register with AKC.  With the AKC's current stance, many more pointing dog breeds will as well.  If it weren't for the ABC Brit Nationals, I wouldn't even register my litter with the AKC.  Since all the Brit Championships are already dual sanctioned, walking away from the AKC would  be a non issue for the field dogs.  Of course the show dog people, the ones who run the AKC, might have an issue with that.  But 99% of their dogs suck anyways.  That's why the AKC Pointer and Setter Nationals is considered a joke. 

[Special T]

Interesting... JJ besides  E collars what other things make AKC less sporting dog friendly?

[jetjockey]

There isn't much option for flushing spaniels (Springers and Cockers). AKC Field Trials, Hunt Tests, or??

Not now, but that will change if the AKC keeps up what they are doing.  Like I said, in the Pointing dog world, the Ponter and Setter guys already have nothig to do with the AKC.  The GSP folks have split, and there is a lot of people who want to do the same in the Brit world.  Those are the 4 biggest pointing breeds by number in the US.

[jetjockey]

Interesting... JJ besides  E collars what other things make AKC less sporting dog friendly?

It's not they are necessarily less sporting dog friendly, it's the fact that sporting dogs are not their top priority.  Go look at an AF pointer, and compare it to an AKC show pointer.  Same thing with springers, Weims, cockers, etc.  When the show people take over, the field ability of the dog is no longer the top concern.  How many AKC hunting breeds have had the hunt bred out of them so they look better in the show ring?  LOTS!!    That's the problem with the AKC.  Now, some will say the AKC is just a registering organization, but that's BS.  If they were, they wouldn't be coming out against E-collars when they have no idea how they work.

[Blackjaw]

Yeah we are little guys in the grand scheme of things. I know there are others besides me that would like more options.

In regard to your last post. Are there other breeds besides cockers and springers that are pushing (or have tried to push) for an official split between field bred and show bred?

[jetjockey]

I'm not sure if there has been any lookig for an official split, but you don't have to look to far to see what the priorities are.  Watch the Westminster dog show some time and look at the sporting breeds.  It's obvious most of those dogs are not being bred to retain any of their hunting characteristics.

[jetjockey]

Here's my question.  E-collars have been baned in many parts if the world, and there was even a push in CA years ago to ban them there.  Which side of the fence will the AKC fall on?

[Bluemoon]

I try to stay out of these kinds of topics, but sometimes I can't so with that being said.  Jet you stated that AF promotes hunting dogs then why did NAVHDA break away from them because AF took a stand against shooting and killing birds.  It is quite easy to to train a dog to stand there pop a popgun then watch the bird fly away.  It is another thing to teach a dog to stand through wing and shot and retrieve to hand.  What good is a hunting dog that can't retrieve?  I also take offense to you saying that AKC National Championships are a joke.  Having won 4 of them with 3 different dogs was not a joke.  Especially when you say AF people don't go to them.  Then why did I beat Ritche Robinson, the late Dave King and many other AF people at these event who were there with strings of great dogs?
I do agree with you that the AKC is becoming a joke.  Many of us now state it stands for " All Kinds of Cash" but it does have it place.  There are many people who can't take weeks off to go to a AF event or can't afford a Pro to train, run and handle their dogs.  So the AKC venues is all they have.  It does not make their dogs any less of a bird dog. Just please consider the whole picture before you get on your soap box.
Regards
 

[jetjockey]

No disrespect, but the AKC Pointer and Setter Nationals is a joke.  How do you quantify a breed National champion when the best dogs of that breed aren't even there?  Most of the top Pointers and Setters arent AKC registered.  As far as hunting goes, field trials were set up to compare the best hunting dogs.  Down here in the South, were trials started, pointed dogs point, and retrieving dogs retrieve.  It's still that way on many of the old plantations.  Cockers, springers, and the occasional lab all retrieved the birds killed over completely broke pointers and setters.  Hunting has changed, but the traditional field trials have stayed the same.  As far as the people you beat in trials, are you speaking of Mr King from GA, who passed last year or the year before?

As far as AF vs NAVHDA is concerned, who knows why NAVHDA broke away.  Many, if not most of the AF trials held down here in the South are ran on wild birds.  #1.  You can't shoot wild birds out of season, so trial season would be very short if you were required to.  #2.  In a big trial, 1 single trial would decimate the wild bird population.  Is that good stewardship?  Does NAVHDA run on wild birds?  Nope.  So How does  running dogs on planted birds promote good bird dogs?   

[Bluemoon]

I am not sure about the Setters on how they run their Nationals.  When I was running Pointers in AKC trials their Nationals were open to AF pointers with a Win or R/U and or a Derby win.  So we were running against the best of the best.  Yes,  that is the Mr. King I was referring about he was a very good man in my book and a tragic loss to the dog world.
I will also state that my Pointers are both AF and AKC registered.  I am now on my 4th generation of my own breedings and my foundation dog was out of Bly Spy Master and Nevada Hankette which were both AF National Champions.  I by choice chose to run AKC events because of the politics of AF trials which is a whole topic on it's own.  Now the only thing that is important to me is having the best possible guide dogs there is for our clients to make their hunting experience the best it can be..May you and your new pups win many trials and Nat. CH's.   

[jetjockey]

Mr King was not an AF guy.  He ran his GSP's in mostly AKC weekend trials and the occasional AF GSP trial.  He was a great person.  I've met him, know people who had dogs with him, and seen his dogs run.  He was not however, an AF guy.  AF guys don't run their dogs in AKC trials, not even the AKC Nationals.  Well, maybe the West coast AF guys do, but the Pointer and Setter guys down here in The South certainly don't.  And they hunt their AF AA and SD dogs during the hunting season, so most every AF dog down here has had lots of birds killed over them.  That may be differe in the West coast, but the top dogs out here all get birds killed over them and are trained to the highest level of steadiness.

That doesn't change the fact that the AKC seems to be supporting issues that are contrary to the hunting dog crowds best interests.   Getting AF sanctioned trials would be very easy on the West coast, and no different then what has happened on the East coast.  You can run weekend trials under AF as well as Championships.

[Bluemoon]

I'm done,  If you read your post you contradict yourself many times.  And I'm not looking to debate.
Last I checked this was Hunt Washington not Hunt the South.  I only trialed for 35 years and ran and trained my own dogs not write a check and become an expert. 
Enjoy your trial season.
Nuff said!!! 

[jetjockey]

Well, dont misrepresent yourself and claim you have run against AF people when the people you claim to have run against don't run dogs in AF.  You probably didn't realize I have met the man and watched his dogs run..   Oops!

[Happy Gilmore]

how can you claim to have a gun dog that doesn't retrieve live shot game in competition?

[jetjockey]

Go re-read the post.  The argument could easily be made "how can you claim to have a gun dog that doesn't hunt and find real wild birds in competition"!

[jetjockey]

Looks like there was a lot of backlash. 


On Saturday morning, AKC agreed to appear on Fox & Friends to discuss our thoughts on the use of e-collars for pet training, a buzzed about subject triggered from the release of a recent study.

The AKC has never called for a ban on e-collars. The AKC supports choice in training methods, as well as trusting the experts. Our thousands of field trial, performance and companion participants are the experts, those with the training experience and knowledge to obtain AKC titles on their dogs. It is our opinion that when placed in the informed hands of professionals, e-collars are an appropriate and effective tool for training dogs that are not only well behaved in the home but also competitive in the field. In fact, listed under the heading “Training Collars,” our position in support of e-collars as it pertains to AKC events, dog clubs and professional trainers has not wavered since it was adopted by the Board of Directors in 2001.

When we accept national media opportunities, we see them as a chance to talk to the nearly 57 million dog-owning households across the country who may not know about AKC’s resources and offerings. For better or worse, the vast majority of those owners will face struggles at the most basic level of training, not the complexities of handling performance-level dogs in the field or advanced companion work. When we appeared on Fox & Friends, it was our intention to speak to those novice owners who are seeking the best methods to create well-trained pets. Those methods do not include misuse or overuse of e-collars at the hands of amateur owners, an opinion with which I’m sure any dog expert can agree. AKC maintains its encouragement of positive reinforcement techniques for those beginner owners.

We continue to support the training techniques used by our experienced, responsible, and dedicated performance and companion competitors, and we apologize for not making that distinction clear during Saturday’s segment.

Sincerely,
James Crowley, Executive Secretary
American Kennel Club

[wildweeds]

Born and bred washington state dog.......... HOF National Champeen "Jerry's Runaway Bandit" Bred by Dale Davis and Owned/handled by Jerry Arlington.And next febuary a former washington resident will run at ames in the big show, setter female 2x AA CH Southwind Jetset Drifter.

[jetjockey]

For 6 years I've been saying I'm going to drive over and ride the AF Nationals at Ames.  Since this will probably be my last winter in GA before moving to CO, this might be my last chance to easily do it.  I rode the AKC Nationals there several years ago.  Those historic grounds are pretty amazing,  and surprisingly tight for an AA National. I'd love to ride the Continental as well, but that probably won't happen.  I'll be rooting for the Setter from the PNW.  It'd be cool to see a west coast dog standing at the steps.

[AspenBud]

Interesting... JJ besides  E collars what other things make AKC less sporting dog friendly?

Take a gander at an Irish Setter and then look at every other pointing dog on a show bench.

[AspenBud]

Jet you stated that AF promotes hunting dogs then why did NAVHDA break away from them because AF took a stand against shooting and killing birds.  It is quite easy to to train a dog to stand there pop a popgun then watch the bird fly away.  It is another thing to teach a dog to stand through wing and shot and retrieve to hand.  What good is a hunting dog that can't retrieve?   

I realize that we could argue about this all day, but AF likes to push wild bird trials and not just trials run on pen raised poultry.

You can't shoot wild birds in a trial.

There is also an argument in favor of saying that a dog that can handle wild birds can handle pen raised ones but the reverse is not always true. Retrieving is a trained skill and really has no bearing on whether or not a pointing dog will be an outstanding athlete or bird finder or whether the dog should ultimately be bred.

Discussions like this frequently become blood baths between NSTRA and AF guys. Both have a point.

[AspenBud]

The sad thing about this thread is it devolved to this or that registry being better rather than focusing on the fact that the country's biggest registry had a spokesperson openly come out against e-collars on national TV. One of the most relied on, fundamental, tools used by bird dog trainers has been deemed unacceptable and cruel by a registry that is supposed to support bird dog owners.

[10Key]

The sad thing about this thread is it devolved to this or that registry being better rather than focusing on the fact that the country's biggest registry had a spokesperson openly come out against e-collars on national TV. One of the most relied on, fundamental, tools used by bird dog trainers has been deemed unacceptable and cruel by a registry that is supposed to support bird dog owners.

nailed it

[Happy Gilmore]

The sad thing about this thread is it devolved to this or that registry being better rather than focusing on the fact that the country's biggest registry had a spokesperson openly come out against e-collars on national TV. One of the most relied on, fundamental, tools used by bird dog trainers has been deemed unacceptable and cruel by a registry that is supposed to support bird dog owners.

Actually they made it pretty clear that was her personal opinion and they performance dept will chime in shortly. The interview was barely even a couple minutes. The reaction is like PETA to a squirrel kill

[jetjockey]

Then she needs to be fired.  She CLEARLY references the AKC and says "we" believe there are better methods.  Never mind the fact that she is on National TV representing the AKC as there spokesman.   Nowhere in the interview did she EVER say it was her opinion!  She clearly stated it was the opinion of the AKC, and she was representing them as their spokesman.  The AKC is just trying to cover their Azz.

[AspenBud]

The sad thing about this thread is it devolved to this or that registry being better rather than focusing on the fact that the country's biggest registry had a spokesperson openly come out against e-collars on national TV. One of the most relied on, fundamental, tools used by bird dog trainers has been deemed unacceptable and cruel by a registry that is supposed to support bird dog owners.

Actually they made it pretty clear that was her personal opinion and they performance dept will chime in shortly. The interview was barely even a couple minutes. The reaction is like PETA to a squirrel kill

That's as it should be. Someone that far up the chain making comments like that on national TV, even for a couple of minutes, is incredibly bad PR that HSUS and PETA live for. She threw bird dog trainers and owners under the bus with a very misinformed opinion and represented it as AKC's stand on them. That can't go unanswered anymore.

[wildweeds]

E collars are far more humane approach than the way it used to be done, a LOT of dogs before E collars flat out got shot at in the hindparts. Truly talented trainers can get the job done with nothing but a checkcord,birds and patience,thing is about that............... most of them have been dead along time,those were men who didn't have the luxury of modern devices because of the time they lived in.What they were afforded however were lots of free birds  from mother nature to train on.

[Happy Gilmore]

Then she needs to be fired.  She CLEARLY references the AKC and says "we" believe there are better methods.  Never mind the fact that she is on National TV representing the AKC as there spokesman.   Nowhere in the interview did she EVER say it was her opinion!  She clearly stated it was the opinion of the AKC, and she was representing them as their spokesman.  The AKC is just trying to cover their Azz.

AF has an opportunity to make a stand and be influential. They should step up to the plate and do some interviews with Fox News on the subject and use their strong influential power on the east coast to shame the AKC and all the weaknesses of their registration, history and performance dept. history to show the nation.

[jetjockey]

Why are you defending the AKC so much?  Do you agree with their stance?

The AF should stay out of it.  There's no reason to insert themselves into the AKC's internal fight.

[wildweeds]

Hey make no mistake about it, Mr. Mathys is all about the money too.................And there is just as much crooked AF stuff that goes on as in the AKC(For example,accepting a check to register a litter for futurity nomination a year an a half after the nominations close,and 10 days prior to the futurity running) . Jet will get it figured out quick if he starts running in open pointer/setter stakes.An amateur will not win an open stake,amateurs winning open stakes steals money from pro trainers/handlers pockets,the amateurs who do win those stakes  with any consistancy have very large pocketbooks (Sean Derrig is one,Sean Kelly is another),There is a large percentage of amateurs and pros alike who cheat cheat cheat and falsify papers as to the real age of the dog.Mulitple X CH derby dogs(less than 30 months old) are far longer in the teeth than as advertised on paper.Many setters are actually poinsetters with 50% of the blood coursing through their veins being pointer,same is true of German shorthairs(Dan Hoke got embarrased with a DNA test that didn't match GSP after a futurity win at a national breed event) and last but not least Brits have the blood of BOTH setter and orange and white pointers running in a few of them,long leggedness is not a brittiany trait,neither is blistering speed or range,Bobby Kirk was rumored to have bred Orange and white setter AA CH Alamance Little Rock to more than a couple brittianys for 400 a squirt out behind the woodshed. AF It's an old boy's club,octegenarians with more money than they know what to do with,they blow it on dogs so as to ensure spoiling their heirs  with just the right amount.New blood in the judicial seats and what do you get? A repeat setter national champion,2 years in a row after a 42 year drought.Coincidence I think not many qualified participants gave their all in those 42 years and public opinion of those who watched said setters were robbed, Tekoa mountain sunrise was one,Ida o priscella was another,Jetsetter was also robbed IMO after watching the video far more stylish on point and rock solid after the flight and gunsmoke,ZERO letdown .I believe in putting up the best dog,but in the south you'll need to get past the notion of if it ain't a pointer........  Ferrell Miller IMO did more for developing  better birddogs in the last 50 years than any other individual,what did it get him? Banned for life from Jet's beloved AF trial system,nobody likes a winner,Gary lester and Ike Todd continue to carry the torch that burns the white dog banner,Ferrell got the collateral damage ousting by owning a stud dog and signing the slip that the stud had bred a female,the female was misrepresented at breeding time,the sole person involved in the deception belonged to the owner of the dam,but it was a way to kick Ferrell to the curb and get rid of him forever.I highly doubt the man cares a lick..........

Then she needs to be fired.  She CLEARLY references the AKC and says "we" believe there are better methods.  Never mind the fact that she is on National TV representing the AKC as there spokesman.   Nowhere in the interview did she EVER say it was her opinion!  She clearly stated it was the opinion of the AKC, and she was representing them as their spokesman.  The AKC is just trying to cover their Azz.

AF has an opportunity to make a stand and be influential. They should step up to the plate and do some interviews with Fox News on the subject and use their strong influential power on the east coast to shame the AKC and all the weaknesses of their registration, history and performance dept. history to show the nation.

[jetjockey]

That happens in all breed competitions.  People cheat to win in every sport.  It's the downside to competition.  Luckily, most of the cross breeding is going away with DNA testing. As far as AF goes, how many amateur football teams beat NFL teams?  How many amateur boxers can beat a pro?  There's a reason Amateurs dont do as well.  They are AMATEURS!  That has nothing to do with the AKC openly decrying e-collars to tens of millions of viewers on public TV.

Wild.  Before you open your mouth about the South, you might want to come down here and experience it first.  It's a pointer AND setter world down here.  The problem isn't bias from Setters.  The problem is very few Setters get qualified for the National.  There was a time when Setters used to OWN the National.  Where was the bias then? 

[AspenBud]

Cover dog is an American Field venue, not run in the South, and setters hold their own, if not dominate, in that venue and even a Brittany has managed to crack the glass ceiling in it. AF is about more than horseback dogs and quail. And cover dog has its own championship outside of Ames.

Setters have been a minority at Ames for years and there are some good reasons, not the least of which involves breed personalities. If any of those controversial losses had been made wins I'd bet anything that folks on the Pointer side would have said there was favoritism because it was a setter.

American Field also made no secret that outcrosses between setters and pointers were allowed under certain conditions. They did it for years and those interim dogs were called droppers. People can say what they want about that but it's not a stretch to say that most all setters and pointers competing in a field trial (it does not matter if it's NSTRA, AF, AKC, NBHA, BDC, or whatever) or that come from such heritage (95% of Pointers in the US do) have more than a few AF registered dogs in their breeding at some point. German shorthairs? They aren't called that just because they aren't registered in Germany, many many of them have a heavy dose of vitamin P (Pointer) in them and that includes dogs not involved with field trials. A lot of them are not the same as dogs in Germany and would not pass a DNA test there. Want to take bets where some of the Pointers involved came from? No one's hands are clean (if anyone thinks what AF did is bad) and it's not really an argument when it comes to which organization has had the most influence in field trialdom when it comes to setters and Pointers and even Brittanys.

There are a lot of people who like lines that are set in stone and never outcrossed. Folks breeding llewellin setters are of that mindset. Hardcore Elhew folks are another (and there are only 3-4 true Elhew kennels in this country and they aren't west of the Mississippi). The problem is with time those lines degrade or fail to keep up unless new blood is brought in. Pick your poison, a lot of people swear by Elhew and llewellin breedings for hunting dogs, but if setter folks were dismayed at how long it took to win at Ames the llewellin folks haven't even had a dog compete there in years...and Bob Wehle is dead.

[AspenBud]

"So it has been forty-three years since a setter has won the National at the Ames Plantation in Grand Junction, Tennessee. More than half a human lifetime. Some thought setter fans would never see another setter National Champion.

Why so seldom? Because Pointers are easier and quicker to train to the harsh and peculiar requirements of this extreme sport. Or stated another way, because it generally takes longer for a setter to round into form, and a setter is more likely to suffer a setback in the process, and so fewer and fewer patrons and handlers choose the longhair as a candidate. Economics and impatience."

http://strideaway.com/shadow-oak-bo-meditations-on-a-pedigree/

[AspenBud]

An amateur will not win an open stake,amateurs winning open stakes steals money from pro trainers/handlers pockets,the amateurs who do win those stakes  with any consistancy have very large pocketbooks (Sean Derrig is one,Sean Kelly is another)

Most amateurs will not win because All Age trials at that level really are a rich man's game. You need horses, land, well bred dogs, a good trainer, and money and time to campaign a dog enough just to have a chance at winning enough to make it big. It is simply out of reach for a lot of people.

A lot of guys are probably good enough to drive in NASCAR but most don't have the money for that either.