Cat Hunting in Special Permit Area's

[WACATHUNTER]

So after seeing the Cat that the hound hunters got today ( Post titled Chelan Co Cat?), I did a little research and learned to much.  I called the quota line to see how many more can be killed in Chelan CO and hit the #1 for the automated general cougaer hunting info and learned that as a boot (non-hound owner) cat hunter that I am not allowed to hunt in any of the counties that allow permit cougar hunting during the permit season.  Cougar permit season opens Dec. 1st.  I am all for hound hunting and the taking of more cats, but I also really enjoy boot hunting and feel that I should be able to hunt as well, since I can't put in for the permits anyway, due to not owning a dog.  Also, there are now very few areas to boot hunt since the expansion of the permit areas. 

Just thought I would inform/vent/get some feedback on this topic.

WACAT

[jackelope]

Just thought I would inform/vent/get some feedback on this topic

well...you will surely get what you are after....this will be a 3 page thread quick i bet.

i am far from an expert but i believe the reason or one of the big ones for no boot hunters is so the cats that are killed are id'ed as male or female before they are killed.

[WACATHUNTER]

Well that does make sense and like I said before I am all for hound hunting and if I could own hounds, i definitly would.  I was more supprised than anything because I am new the Wenatchee and had previously lived in eburg and never had to worry about it.  I agree it'll be pages before long. 

[Machias]

"Also, there are now very few areas to boot hunt since the expansion of the permit areas." 

The "expansion" was only one county.  Right now there are only 6 counties closed and those 6 counties were open for boot hunters from 1 Aug until 1 Dec.  Hound hunters get 6 counties, 1 Dec thru 31 Mar.  You have the entire rest of the state currently open, lots of good places to go call or try and track and run one down.   

[Grizzly95]

Hell I just want to get a cat. Shot one about 10 years ago, but I was more scared than anything. We were bird hunting and it went after our dog. Got it with a 1oz slug from a 12ga; turned it into a canoe.

[WACATHUNTER]

Machias, I understand boot hunters have a large area, I guess I am just being selfish to an extent and would prefer to hunt close to home in areas that I am familiar with.  I understand boot hunters have a much longer season, but my prefered method is tracking and typically from dec. 1st on is the best time due to snow and no other big game hunting to do, or very little.  Once again probably being selfish!!!  The point I don't understand is why can't boot hunters and hound hunters hunt the same seasons/areas.  Maybe having seperate quoutas or permits.  Just a thought.
WACAT

[Slider]

I totally agree with you WACATHUNTER!!! Because I don't have a dog I can't hunt in my back yard?

[Houndhunter]

just cause you have hounds dont mean you get to run lion

[bankwalker]

go hunt around eburg. ive seen more cougar sign in manastash and teanaway then anywhere else in this state once the snows start falling.

teanum creek road (south side of thorp on i90) gets alot of cat traffic once the deer and elk start getting pushed out from snows. i cut alot of tracks last year during late archery elk season. and i would assume that the cats are gonna be back in that general area big time again.

[WACATHUNTER]

Bank, I know there is good hunting in kittitas CO, I was just referring to what slider refered to as hunting in your back yard!!!  Does WDFW post the drawing odds for the special permits?  Just curious how long the hound hunters need have to wait to get drawn???
WACAT

[rougheye]

go hunt around eburg. ive seen more cougar sign in manastash and teanaway then anywhere else in this state once the snows start falling.

teanum creek road (south side of thorp on i90) gets alot of cat traffic once the deer and elk start getting pushed out from snows. i cut alot of tracks last year during late archery elk season. and i would assume that the cats are gonna be back in that general area big time again.

Im going to check it out right now , me and the boy , maybe we will see a coyote or something . Report back in a few hours. 

[bobcat]

WACATHUNTER, I totally agree with you and I believe you will find most hunters feel the same way as well. There is absolutely no reason for cougar season to be shut down for us "boot hunters" just because there is a permit season for hounds in that county at the same time. The permits numbers are very small anyway, and the success rate of the boot hunters is going to be almost zero. It makes no sense and all I can think of is it must have been some anti-hunter/cat lover in the WDFW that made up that rule.

[Houndhunter]

as long as the cats shot by boot hunters didnt count on the quota than that would be fine, otherwise even if 2-3 lions get shot by boothunters that could really screw some of us hound guys over

[bobcat]

You're right...it wouldn't be fair for those cats to be counted on the hound hunter's quota.

[billythekidrock]

WACATHUNTER, I totally agree with you and I believe you will find most hunters feel the same way as well. There is absolutely no reason for cougar season to be shut down for us "boot hunters" just because there is a permit season for hounds in that county at the same time. The permits numbers are very small anyway, and the success rate of the boot hunters is going to be almost zero. It makes no sense and all I can think of is it must have been some anti-hunter/cat lover in the WDFW that made up that rule.

I agree. I also think that the hound hunters should consider lobbying to let boot hunters in or there could be even more backlash.

[WACATHUNTER]

I definitly think that we need to leave the hound hunting quota alone, those quota numbers and probably alot more need to be taken everyear.  I think a couple cat qouta for "boots" would be pretty suffuicient.  Any members have a permit this seaon???
WACAT

[rougheye]

Just got back . Only got 1/4 of a mile and i ran into a fresh cougar track , followed it up mthe road and .   .    someone was already on him . Drove theloop and just some deer and 1 coyote track .

[Machias]

Gentlemen, they count all cats harvested from 1 Sep to 1 Dec against the quota.  The harvest for hound hunters two years ago was over a couple days after Christmas, last year the first week of Jan it was over.  This year they cut the quota in HALF.  I would imagine it's pretty close to being over already.  You guys talk about how nice it would be to hunt out your back door.  Even when drawn the last two years it was a two hour drive for me to get north and into the good cat areas.  Last year boot hunters killed two females in the permit area after 1 Dec, those females came out of our quota.  You guys have LOTS of opportunities right now all the way into March.  I don't get to run my dogs this year in WA.     You have massive areas in the state to go tracking and or calling.  I'm not trying to start a pissing match with you guys but I'm sorry, backlash...backlash?  That right there is funny.  You think the hound hunters have ANY say what so ever on areas and seasons or quotas or ANYTHING.  Backlash...that *censored* is funny right there.   

[Ridgeratt]

Machias I do agree with you that we have some great cat hunting 2 hours north! But when you look at what was the original proposal of a 3 year trial period that was penned by senator Morton and Gump. This was also supported by the houndmen as they didn't need any Nimrods in the woods while they were running hounds so there dogs wouldn't get shot. I have talked to the WSU people that were tracking the cats in GMU 105 and 101. I'm not sure that I would make that much effect on you. First of all as I go call blind the chance of me calling in a cat is like winning the Lotto! Yes there maybe one in the area that may respond. But having several hound friends they say that my best chance is to drive the roads after a fresh snow like yourself and when you cut a track dog it! Most likely the cat won't go far before treeing. This was a senate bill to offset the depredation of the farmers livestock.do a google search of SB 6118 year 2004. it has bee extended for at least 1 year. I do like the fact I can hunt from my back yard where I do know the area. Why should I have to go to an area I don't know the lay of land. After thanksgiving while I was out killing Christmas trees for the wife I had the oppertunity to have a pack of hounds come trotting through the clear cut I was in. I knew the differance. Not a single one looked like a cougar!!

[billythekidrock]

Backlash...that *censored* is funny right there.   

You cut people out of a season you make no friends. Hound hunters have it hard enough and I am just saying that by them lobbying or helping boot hunters would go a long way in repairing bad ties.

[Machias]

WE didn't cut ANYONE out of ANYTHING!!  Sheesh, listen to what I'm saying WE did not make these rules.  It has nothing to do with us wanting the few guys that call or track out of the woods.  I don't have any problem with you being out there, but were talking about three weeks that your not allowed to harvest a cat.  Hound Hunters had zero say in who would be allowed to participate.  The main reason they did this was because we have to call in each day before we go hunt to see if the quota has been met.  Once the female quota has been taken, the harvest is closed.  The harvest will be closed to ALL of us in those units any day now.  Right now the quota stands at Chelan 1 female or 3 toms left, Okanogan 2 females or 6 cats left, Stevens/Pend O 3 females or 7 total cats.  It ain't going to be open much longer for any of us.

So do you approach bowhunters or muzzleloaders with the same request?  There are all kinds of seasons set aside for one type of user group that excludes another user group.  Hell I didn't get to late deer hunt out of my back yard either, I had to drive up north to hunt deer.  How is that any different then what is going on right now?  Spring bear, the whole state is not open,, it's a draw type hunt, how is that any different.  Personally I could care less if you were allowed to lion hunt in the units open to hounds, as long as you called in everyday to see if the quota was still open, but at the same time I don't feel a bit sorry that those areas are closed, you have the whole rest of the state open, for EIGHT months out of the year and your complaining because you can't try to harvest a cat for three weeks in 6 counties?   

[buck470]

Something about us ALL being hunters? Sticking together, united we stand, divided we fall?

[Machias]

You mean like when all the hunters of this state stood together in the fight to keep hound hunting for lions, bears and bobcats,  or bear baiting, or trapping.  You mean united like that?

[turnloose]

  :
          Hound guys hardly have any area to hunt. Boot hunters can walk any where they please. Give me a break!

[WAcoyotehunter]

You mean like when all the hunters of this state stood togehter in the fight to keep hound hunting for lions, bears and bobcats,  or bear baiting, or trapping.  You mean united like that?

Well played sir.  Hound hunters are the 'step children' in hunting and got almost no support when the time came to make laws against it. 

[WAcoyotehunter]

last year boot hunters killed almost the same # of cats as hound guys.  It's not easy feeding and working with those dogs all year...particularly when you have an outside chance of getting to hunt.

[provider]

Machias, you personally may not have lobbied for exclusive opportunity for houndsman, but the fact is, the hound special interest is who helped draft, proposed, and successfully lobbied for exclusive allocation.  You may not have a problem with sharing opportunity with “boot hunters”, but many of your fellow users did/do.

My understanding was that the requirement of owning hounds to eligible for applying for the permits was being dropped (I thought this year), but apparently not until next year?  Do you know anything more on this?  But in any case, I do not feel the boot hunters should be excluded in those counties during that time of year.  That method of hunting really needs the conditions associated with that season timing.

This issue has come up many times over the years, and when it does, I hope you know that I am not attacking you.  I think you are sincere and a very reasonable person from what I’ve read.  I am just not happy with the opportunity being taken away from the boot hunters, and given to the houndsman.  I don’t blame you guys for enjoying it, know it’s unrealistic to expect you to lobby to change it back, but this type of exclusive allocation is unfair and drives a wedge between us.

[Machias]

"My understanding was that the requirement of owning hounds to eligible for applying for the permits was being dropped (I thought this year), but apparently not until next year?  Do you know anything more on this?"  No sir, I haven't heard anything on this.  If it does pass I hope all, every last one of the houndsmen of this state do not take anyone out.  I'm not trying to be a jerk, but if you get drawn and don't own any hounds I guess you'll be expecting a houndsmen, who has spent several thousand dollars on his dogs, tracking equipment, shock collars etc... to take you out, tree your cat so you can walk up and shoot it.  Is that right?  As a hound "handler" I'll only be able to go when you can go because I can't be out there without the permittee.  You live in Seattle, how often are you going to come and hunt Stevens/Pend Orielle counties next winter?  Also you have to drive what 5-6 hours to hunt cats over here if it was open to boot hunters?  That is about the same amount of time you have to drive to get to the Blues, which currently has excellent calling and tracking snow and is currently open to boot hunters.  Hey guess what, I'm a boot hunter this year as well, no hound hunter permit for me.

I'm not attacking anyone either. 

Your best guess, how many guys are being excluded from hunting those 6 counties?  Remember this is during a three weekish period.  We might be talking 25 guys for a total of say roughly 6 days each, maybe, if they hunted every weekend.  So for a few days you have 6 counties you can't go play in for lions, right?

"exclusive allocation is unfair and drives a wedge between us."  There is already a wedge between us.  So do you call your bowhunting friends and tell them to lobby that gun hunters be allowed to chase elk and deer during archery only seasons?  How is that houndsmen must be the ones to step forward and allow you to hunt during our season in our GMUs.  You guys lobbying the bowhunters, the muzzleloaders, the falconers??

[WAcoyotehunter]

Machias, you personally may not have lobbied for exclusive opportunity for houndsman, but the fact is, the hound special interest is who helped draft, proposed, and successfully lobbied for exclusive allocation.  You may not have a problem with sharing opportunity with “boot hunters”, but many of your fellow users did/do.

My understanding was that the requirement of owning hounds to eligible for applying for the permits was being dropped (I thought this year), but apparently not until next year?  Do you know anything more on this?  But in any case, I do not feel the boot hunters should be excluded in those counties during that time of year.  That method of hunting really needs the conditions associated with that season timing.

This issue has come up many times over the years, and when it does, I hope you know that I am not attacking you.  I think you are sincere and a very reasonable person from what I’ve read.  I am just not happy with the opportunity being taken away from the boot hunters, and given to the houndsman.  I don’t blame you guys for enjoying it, know it’s unrealistic to expect you to lobby to change it back, but this type of exclusive allocation is unfair and drives a wedge between us.

   There are too few permits for the hound guys as it is.. The last thing they need is a boot hunter w/VERY low success rates pulling a tag and eating it.  Let someone use it for training thier dogs!!!!!  Go anywhere else to boot hunt for the longtails!  MOST of the state is open to that!

[WACATHUNTER]

Well Jackelope was right, I really got something going here.  I understand that everyone has their opinion and stance on such things.  I just want to clarify my stance since i got this topic going.  The intent was never to divide hunting types and/or take away from one another.  I was just saying that it would be nice if we could all hunt the same areas without placing a negative effect on either groups, i.e. affecting permit quoutas or eliminating hound hunters chances of drawing, by a non-hound owner occupying a tag.  Good luck to all!!!
WACAT

[Machias]

"The intent was never to divide hunting types and/or take away from one another. "  Honestly no one thought that's what you were trying to do.  It was a good honest question and I think the majority of hunters feel like you do.  I completely understand. 

I believe they excluded boot hunters because they were certain, X number of cats would be killed in the dog units and they are afraid of going over the quotas.  Getting the general hunting populace to call in everyday would be a nightmare and probably unlikely to happen.  Heck last season we still had two guys kill females in areas they should not have been hunting.  I try not to get fired up over this topic.  I guess I have a hard time understanding why folks, who do not complain about similar season exclusions, are upset that hound hunters get a few weeks/areas to themselves.

[WACATHUNTER]

I understand as well, maybe when they open up permits to all I could get you to take me!!!!!!!!!!!  J/K 
WACAT

[Machias]

 

Seriously, the next time I draw your more then welcome to come along anytime.

[WACATHUNTER]

I would love to!  Thanks.
WACAT

[Machias]

I would like to ask the guys who track and call, by the way I do a bunch of calling myself and have for many years.  Lets say your allowed to hunt in the special permit areas.  You hike your @$$ off tracking a cat, you've litterally gone miles upon miles, your getting close, you just know it.  Then BAM a pack of hounds come streaming past you, baying up a storm and tree the cat up the next drainage.  You hear snowmobiles racing to the spot and BOOM.  Huge tom taken, lots of photos of dogs and hunter taken and you come trudging up.  I bet you'd be so fricken pissed at those houndsmen you could explode on the spot.  Next scene, you set up and start calling, it's the 30th stand you've had this winter but your feeling good cause you've found a pretty fresh lion kill near by and you know he's in the area.  You start wailing on your call, dang you sound good in the quiet mountain air.  Waaaa Waaaa, what the hell is that racket?  Pack of baying hounds comes running through your set up and bam they have that cat treed just a few hundred yards away.   

I remember when I used to bear bait.  Baiters would get all kinds of ticked off if the dogs ran a bear off "their" bait.

Keeping us seperated probably saves us from some serious confrontations. 

[Hornseeker]

I always felt bad when we'd accidently screw up a baiters setup... 9 times out of ten we had no idea there was a guy baiting there...we'd just get a strike while driving the road and turn loose..only to discover the bait later... now and again a guy would get pissed...didn't do him any good though.....

[klickman]

I would like to ask the guys who track and call, by the way I do a bunch of calling myself and have for many years.  Lets say your allowed to hunt in the special permit areas.  You hike your @$$ off tracking a cat, you've litterally gone miles upon miles, your getting close, you just know it.  Then BAM a pack of hounds come streaming past you, baying up a storm and tree the cat up the next drainage.  You hear snowmobiles racing to the spot and BOOM.  Huge tom taken, lots of photos of dogs and hunter taken and you come trudging up.  I bet you'd be so fricken pissed at those houndsmen you could explode on the spot.  Next scene, you set up and start calling, it's the 30th stand you've had this winter but your feeling good cause you've found a pretty fresh lion kill near by and you know he's in the area.  You start wailing on your call, dang you sound good in the quiet mountain air.  Waaaa Waaaa, what the hell is that racket?  Pack of baying hounds comes running through your set up and bam they have that cat treed just a few hundred yards away.   

I remember when I used to bear bait.  Baiters would get all kinds of ticked off if the dogs ran a bear off "their" bait.

Keeping us seperated probably saves us from some serious confrontations. 

Having been on a few cat hunts w/o dogs I have to say I would be pretty bummed if a bunch of dogs beat me to a cat I had been tracking all day.  We have to keep in mind that these cats need to be harvested.  Believe me, you don't want to be in the predator control problems we have up here in AK. 

Mixing the two user groups doesn't sound like a good solution.  Unfortunately giving a user group privileges that not everyone can have is when people get upset. 

KLICKMAN

[billythekidrock]

Then BAM a pack of hounds come streaming past you, baying up a storm and tree the cat up the next drainage. 

Still happens in the Winston unit. And yes, I know it is not open.

[billythekidrock]

WE didn't cut ANYONE out of ANYTHING!!  Sheesh, listen to what I'm saying WE did not make these rules.  It has nothing to do with us wanting the few guys that call or track out of the woods.  I don't have any problem with you being out there, but were talking about three weeks that your not allowed to harvest a cat. 

Read what I am saying, and what I am not saying. I never said you cut anyone out. What I am saying is that it couldn't hurt a hound group to lobby for the boot hunters in the permit areas. Extend an olive branch and maybe some of those pissed off boot hunters will help when it comes time to vote.
It would also help if the legit hound hunters cleaned up their ranks. For that matter we all need to be doing more in all aspects of hunting and fishing. Believe it or not, but we are on the losing end of a battle that will eventually see us losing our heritage. Might not be in my lifetime, but my young son will see way more restrictions and feel more lose then I already have.

[jackelope]

Just thought I would inform/vent/get some feedback on this topic.

well...you will surely get what you are after....this will be a 3 page thread quick i bet.

 

[Machias]

"It would also help if the legit hound hunters cleaned up their ranks. "  Agreed, but I'll have to ask for all hunters and fishermen to help me out as in two years of running lions I have only once ran into another houndsmen out running the roads.  If anyone sees a houndsmen breaking the law, hammer them.  I would say that really goes for all user groups.  As a group we have to clean up our fellow sportsmen's acts. 

[clindsayrun]

Okanogan is now closed to cats.
On Jan. 1 it will open to special permit holders. There have been some hound hunters out and about though. Warden tracked some and only came up with blood. Took samples for DNA.
The S.O. and Wardens have been looking all over for these poachers.
Some bear poachers are supposed to be back in action as well, only after the gall bladder.
Keep your eyes open if you live in the Okanogan Valley. Might earn yourself some preference points.

[Ridgeratt]

You mean like when all the hunters of this state stood together in the fight to keep hound hunting for lions, bears and bobcats,  or bear baiting, or trapping.  You mean united like that?

I would like to ask the guys who track and call, by the way I do a bunch of calling myself and have for many years.  Lets say your allowed to hunt in the special permit areas.  You hike your @$$ off tracking a cat, you've litterally gone miles upon miles, your getting close, you just know it.  Then BAM a pack of hounds come streaming past you, baying up a storm and tree the cat up the next drainage.  You hear snowmobiles racing to the spot and BOOM.  Huge tom taken, lots of photos of dogs and hunter taken and you come trudging up.  I bet you'd be so fricken pissed at those houndsmen you could explode on the spot.  Next scene, you set up and start calling, it's the 30th stand you've had this winter but your feeling good cause you've found a pretty fresh lion kill near by and you know he's in the area.  You start wailing on your call, dang you sound good in the quiet mountain air.  Waaaa Waaaa, what the hell is that racket?  Pack of baying hounds comes running through your set up and bam they have that cat treed just a few hundred yards away.   

I remember when I used to bear bait.  Baiters would get all kinds of ticked off if the dogs ran a bear off "their" bait.

Keeping us seperated probably saves us from some serious confrontations. 

Having been on a few cat hunts w/o dogs I have to say I would be pretty bummed if a bunch of dogs beat me to a cat I had been tracking all day.  We have to keep in mind that these cats need to be harvested.  Believe me, you don't want to be in the predator control problems we have up here in AK. 

Mixing the two user groups doesn't sound like a good solution.  Unfortunately giving a user group privileges that not everyone can have is when people get upset. 

KLICKMAN

I hope I was able to get the quotes stuck in here.

First of all the sportsman even thou they may disagree as to the choice of hunting methods did stick together when we were give "GAME MANAGEMENT" by referendum with I-655 several years ago. The state passed this by a vote that if you follow politics was passed by a county on the west side. Just by the shear population numbers can control most of this state. I was working over there and remember seeing a ad on TV. It had a lady holding a cub on her hip like a baby. She said something like "please don't let this happen to his MOM. Next scene was a hound pack on a bear. For a "Non-hunter" this was a graphic scene.

As for having a houndman ruin my set it happens the same way I can be hunting in deer season and having someone else shoot a deer I was watching! It's just hunting and if your not on Private land that's just a chance we take. I still have my bait barrels hoping that by some misguided they may get to be used again.

But adding a new thought to this thread!! You have something new to think about. Now while your running your hounds in the woods we have a new player.

The only confirmed wolf kill is in the Stevens county and that was last year on a calf about 10 miles from my place. This fall I was talking to a school bus driver that heard wolf howls off his back porch in the morning as he was leaving. I ran into the game warden the next day and asked him about the animal. He told me that they had been tracking this animal for 4 or 5 years. I asked if he was radioed and he said they had been tracking him During the elk season I was up hunting one morning I had a snowball white Shepperd in a clear cut below me. Had the biggest cobalt blue band around it's neck. and half the size of the male. He has a pad that's 4x3. My guess is the people that have the radios on them are as knowledgeable as you are with them.

If you do a ruff size to weight the size. I'm not sure that the adage it's not the size of the dog in the fight and the size of the fight in the dog. Will hold up.

I my self don't care to chance running my bird dog's down some of the ridges we hunted for Blue's anymore.

This post was not intended to upset or distance anyone just to make us think!
Thank you for listening.