Game Mgmt. Council Meeting Notes - 2015-17 season proposals, baiting etc.

[bearpaw]

Am I the only archer here that noticed the Elk Season schedule?  First Saturday after Labor day? That must be a misprint!  Holy Cow, that would be the 12th through 24th!   Yowza..

I noticed, and I'm surprised that there hasn't been a lot more posted about it. I think there will be a record number of archery elk tags sold in 2015! Of course, the same could be true of the muzzleloader elk tags, if they're adding 24 GMU's to the early season.

I noticed both of those comments, I especially liked the addition of muzzy units. Not much muzzy opportunity in many areas.

[BULLBLASTER]

Am I the only archer here that noticed the Elk Season schedule?  First Saturday after Labor day? That must be a misprint!  Holy Cow, that would be the 12th through 24th!   Yowza..

I noticed, and I'm surprised that there hasn't been a lot more posted about it. I think there will be a record number of archery elk tags sold in 2015! Of course, the same could be true of the muzzleloader elk tags, if they're adding 24 GMU's to the early season.

Both are good.
I noticed both of those comments, I especially liked the addition of muzzy units. Not much muzzy opportunity in many areas.

[ipkus]

                                                                                                                                                           
“Tags, giving 25% of the tags for quality and OIL tags is simply a feel good move to get the high point holders off of WDFW's backs, since approximately 75% of these tags already are drawn by the high point holders.”                                                                                                                                                                           
I kind of want to say:                                                                                                                                                     
Here we go again with the DFW and commission making changes based on what some of the people with the most points (high point holders) want. Similar to setting up all of the sub-categories for elk and deer just because some of the people with the most points (high point holders) were complaining that they thought it wasn’t fair that they couldn’t draw a cow permit without having to use their points like everyone else. This took and still does take opportunities away from and meat off the tables of people who never got in the way of the people with the most points (high point holders), or their chances of drawing a quality permit.

Don't kid yourself; they created all of the new special permit categories for one reason...additional application revenue.  Period.

[trophyhunt]

I like the idea of 25% going to higher point holders, if fact, I'd like to see it at 50%.  Do I think the guys who have been waiting for 19+ years to draw should have an even better shot at those impossible tags, yes I do.  One year for muzzy in the blues when they had 3 tags, all three went to guys with 6,4 and 2 points.  Call me a whiner cause it did! 

[JimmyHoffa]

Am I the only archer here that noticed the Elk Season schedule?  First Saturday after Labor day? That must be a misprint!  Holy Cow, that would be the 12th through 24th!   Yowza..

I noticed, and I'm surprised that there hasn't been a lot more posted about it. I think there will be a record number of archery elk tags sold in 2015! Of course, the same could be true of the muzzleloader elk tags, if they're adding 24 GMU's to the early season.

That's actually a lot of GMUs, big huge win for muzzy guys (or archers using muzzy tags).  I do have to wonder how it will impact some of the quality bull permits though.  There are only so many GMUs that can hold a general seasons for elk.  Some have quality bull permits from Oct 1-10, which could overlap muzzy elk season.  Would they shorten the permit hunt or shift it to earlier dates?

[whacker1]

I like the idea of 25% going to higher point holders, if fact, I'd like to see it at 50%.  Do I think the guys who have been waiting for 19+ years to draw should have an even better shot at those impossible tags, yes I do.  One year for muzzy in the blues when they had 3 tags, all three went to guys with 6,4 and 2 points.  Call me a whiner cause it did!

I agree these things happen, but you essentially would eliminate Quality Tags for the Youth, because they would never be able to achieve the high point totals.  after 10 years, you still wouldn't have eliminated the highest point totals.  I agree folks have been waiting their whole hunting lives (some of them) for quality elk tags, but if this gets implemented a 20 year old that currently has 5 points won't be able to draw a quality tag for elk until they are well into their 60's or later depending on how many people drop out of the application process......hunting recruitment would fall further and quicker than it already is.  How would you keep youth interested if they have no hope of drawing?

[bobcat]

I think I'm going to have a real hard time deciding between an archery elk tag and a muzzleloader elk tag. Or heck, maybe I'll just go with modern, I'll probably have the woods to myself. 

Or the other option I've been considering- no elk tag purchase at all in 2015. Elk hunting in this state is really beginning to lose its appeal for me. With hoof rot, and almost all timber companies charging for access, and eastern Washington being spike only, it seems a guy would be better off hunting out of state for elk, even if you could only afford to go every other year.

[trophyhunt]

I like the idea of 25% going to higher point holders, if fact, I'd like to see it at 50%.  Do I think the guys who have been waiting for 19+ years to draw should have an even better shot at those impossible tags, yes I do.  One year for muzzy in the blues when they had 3 tags, all three went to guys with 6,4 and 2 points.  Call me a whiner cause it did!

I agree these things happen, but you essentially would eliminate Quality Tags for the Youth, because they would never be able to achieve the high point totals.  after 10 years, you still wouldn't have eliminated the highest point totals.  I agree folks have been waiting their whole hunting lives (some of them) for quality elk tags, but if this gets implemented a 20 year old that currently has 5 points won't be able to draw a quality tag for elk until they are well into their 60's or later depending on how many people drop out of the application process......hunting recruitment would fall further and quicker than it already is.  How would you keep youth interested if they have no hope of drawing?

I think the youth tags should be increased, they do have their own category but there isn't enough to go around.  My daughter didn't get to use her elk points but I guess there just isn't enough time as a youth to draw from the youth section.  I have to disagree with you about youths never drawing a quality elk tag though, even if they put 25 or 50 percent to multiple point holders, they would still be able to draw the other 50 or 75 percent of the tags available for everyone.  I just like the idea that at least a certain percent are guaranteed to go to higher point holders.

[whacker1]

I like the idea of 25% going to higher point holders, if fact, I'd like to see it at 50%.  Do I think the guys who have been waiting for 19+ years to draw should have an even better shot at those impossible tags, yes I do.  One year for muzzy in the blues when they had 3 tags, all three went to guys with 6,4 and 2 points.  Call me a whiner cause it did!

I agree these things happen, but you essentially would eliminate Quality Tags for the Youth, because they would never be able to achieve the high point totals.  after 10 years, you still wouldn't have eliminated the highest point totals.  I agree folks have been waiting their whole hunting lives (some of them) for quality elk tags, but if this gets implemented a 20 year old that currently has 5 points won't be able to draw a quality tag for elk until they are well into their 60's or later depending on how many people drop out of the application process......hunting recruitment would fall further and quicker than it already is.  How would you keep youth interested if they have no hope of drawing?

I think the youth tags should be increased, they do have their own category but there isn't enough to go around.  My daughter didn't get to use her elk points but I guess there just isn't enough time as a youth to draw from the youth section.  I have to disagree with you about youths never drawing a quality elk tag though, even if they put 25 or 50 percent to multiple point holders, they would still be able to draw the other 50 or 75 percent of the tags available for everyone.  I just like the idea that at least a certain percent are guaranteed to go to higher point holders.

I get what you are saying, but in these units that have 1-2 permits - some quality elk, sheep, goat, deer. 
-  Take that same 20 year old that has 5 points today. add 10 years and now he has 15 points and is 30 years old and he is still behind the guy that has 27-28 points. 
--Take that same 20 year old and now add 20 years.  Now he is 40 years old and has 25 points and he is still behind the guy that has 36-37 points. 
---Take that same 20 year old and now add 30 years.  Now he is 50 years old and has 35 points and he is still behind the guy that has 35 points. 
----same 20 year old and now add 40 years.  Now he is 60 years old and has 45 points and he is still behind the guy that has 34 points.
At age 66 that same 20 year old died and never had a prayer to draw a tag for any of the OIL species.......Why would he put in for any of the OIL if he has no chance to draw......This is where the revenue starts to go down for WDFW, when the youth behind us and some that are among us that don't have max points that will never draw figure it out and quit applying.   So now you lose the hunters in the revenue game that are on the upper end of the age spectrum that age out of the hunter pool.......In addition, at an increasing rate you will now lose the younger hunter pool.   This will make it easier for some and possibly everyone to draw, but WDFW will continue to lose revenue year over year, because the pool of applicants is dwindling. 

 That Youth can never draw a sheep tag, because the number of higher point holders will never be reduced enough for him to be in the pool of max points.  And there aren't enough permits/tags for there to be a existing point system permit/tag for the random pool.  It would only be those in the max point pool. 

Every year that goes by under the current point system makes it bit more difficult to draw the quality tags, because of the folks that have 20 points going into 2015 have 400 applications for each hunt they apply for.  That same 20 year old with 5 points moves to 6 in 2016 and has 36 applications for each hunt based on the squaring rule in our system.

Following year the max point holder has 21 points and 441 applications, where the person has 49.

use the numbers I mentioned earlier

at age 40 - he has 25 points, which equals 625 applications vs. the max point holder at 1369 application off his 37 points

This idea/concept will hurt the youthful hunters in the state of Washington.  I encourage everyone to think hard about their children, grand children, nieces and nephews, neighbors, etc....because this will hurt them more than most of us.

[Bob33]

If the number of tags/permits for “maximum point holders” is increased, the gain is short-lived. For two or three years, it helps the very few at the very top of the ladder at the expense of everyone else.

In 2013, 26 “any ram” sheep tags were awarded to a pool of 13,994 applications. There were six applications with 20 points, and six with 19. If 25% of the tags were given to the applications with 20 points, all six of those would draw. Next year, the six applications with 19 points would also draw.

In the third year the 448 applications with 18 points in 2013 would be on the top rung. They would compete for six tags. The vast majority would not draw, even with a new system of allocating 25 percent to the top points holders.

Meanwhile, the applicants with 17 points or less would have their odds drop. Those just one behind the leaders would probably feel most slighted. They would most likely never in their lifetime be on the top run, since there are 448 ahead of them competing for six tags per year.

When new hunters look at the odds of drawing, how many fewer would choose not to enter the special permit game?

[jasnt]

Thanks for the well written update. I'm in favor of most of the recommendations, I think WDFW is trying to listen to the hunting community on most of these issues. THANKS WDFW!

Points System
I think it's a good idea to give 25% to the highest point holders, Utah gives 50% and I think it works great. 25% is very conservative but gives our hunters who have been applying forever a little more hope, nothing wrong with that, 75% still goes to anyone.

Baiting
I agree that a few small rules would be far better than banning baiting altogether, address the problems and don't eliminate it altogether.

Equipment
Those all seem like good reasonable recommendations, the western states are way behind on crossbow hunting, nothing wrong with allowing that in modern seasons, might have to give it a go myself.

Cougar
Did it sound like quotas will increase, another month will not help us in the Northeast unless we get more quota because seasons get closed by the low quotas. We saw 10 cougars this year while hunting. CRAZY

OIL Species
That mostly sounds fair enough to me, although I think they should look closely at moose numbers in some units. I am pretty convinced a few areas are declining. I do think they could double the number of goat areas and give out more goat permits statewide.

Cougar
Did it sound like quotas will increase, another month will not help us in the Northeast unless we get more quota because seasons get closed by the low quotas. We saw 10 cougars this year while hunting. CRAZY

They were adamant that "quotas" was not the correct term...whats listed in the regulations they consider "harvest guidelines".  A lot of the discussion seemed to center around the harvest of sub-adults not counting in those harvest guidelines.  Maybe wingshooter can add his perspective...

I almost forgot....they plan to DOUBLE spring bear permits in NE Washington.

[trophyhunt]

I think more and more people will just start putting in for quality, bull and cow permits when they draw multiseason elk.  I for one will be done applying and playing this draw game once I draw my quality elk, I have too many points to give up right now.  Too many years have gone by since I've had a normal hunting camp, my elk hunting partner and I have turned to Idaho to have a yearly elk hunt.  He's tired of waiting for me to draw my quality tag, we have both wanted to start hunting otc for archery on the west side for years.  My time is running short, I'm 45 years old and not getting younger.  I'm just about to put in for a not so quality elk tag just to get drawn and get on with my hunting life.    My biggest concern is that in the near future the entire state will be draw only, then they will force everyone to buy permit apps.

[whacker1]

I think more and more people will just start putting in for quality, bull and cow permits when they draw multiseason elk.  I for one will be done applying and playing this draw game once I draw my quality elk, I have too many points to give up right now.  Too many years have gone by since I've had a normal hunting camp, my elk hunting partner and I have turned to Idaho to have a yearly elk hunt.  He's tired of waiting for me to draw my quality tag, we have both wanted to start hunting otc for archery on the west side for years.  My time is running short, I'm 45 years old and not getting younger.  I'm just about to put in for a not so quality elk tag just to get drawn and get on with my hunting life.    My biggest concern is that in the near future the entire state will be draw only, then they will force everyone to buy permit apps.

I completely understand your position and I hunt out of state at least every third year if not more frequently for this reason.  Our style of Game Management and number of hunters precludes us from being able to draw the most desirable tags as a collective.  if you want to increase your odds, you truly have to put in for the tags that are less sought after.  Doesn't mean that they are bad tags, but they are definitely not in the same visibility as the top 20 or so quality hunts.  I agree with others, that if they want to improve the odds, they have to figure out a way to limit applications.  It still takes luck when competing against 17,000 of yoru closest friends for a moose tag.

[trophyhunt]

One absolute way to increase odds for the OIL tags, go back to when you had to purchase the tags first to put in.  Most people wouldn't shell out the money to apply, in my opinion.

[buckfvr]

Seems as though wdfw is in a short term game of pacifying hunters with focus on their form of harvest, as in our monies........they want our money and dont want to fix things or right wrongs to earn it..........