Why a crossbow is not the same as a bow

[lokidog]

I got a crossbow, Barnett Jackal, 150 lb draw, from my parents for Christmas.  My second shot robinhooded at 15 yards, offhand.  By my tenth shot, I had it sighted in for 20 yards.

Tonight, my son, 11 yo, 4' 7", and 77 lbs shot it for the first time form twenty yards.  Second pic is his target, three dead deer if he was hunting.

Can anyone actually argue, coherently, that a crossbow is the same as a bow and should be allowed during the archery season?  My dad thinks so, I think he's delusional on this issue.     He lives in WI where archers 65 and older can use a crossbow during archery season.  I asked him why can't kids or women, that are too weak to pull a legal draw weight bow back, use a crossbow during archery season?  His response, "they're not old".      

Now, don't flame me on the disabled person's use of a crossbow, I have absolutely no problems with that.  However, if a person has been a gun hunter all of their lives, becomes disabled and then wants to use a crossbow during archery season, my opinion might change a bit.   

Let the games begin......   

[Bob33]

Great job, Dad. Hope he catches the bug and can join you hunting soon.

[dreamunelk]

Great job, Dad. Hope he catches the bug and can join you hunting soon.

 

May I suggest a youth recurve in the very near future?  You don't need an excuse!

[trophyhunt]

My dad is a disabled hunter, he was able to hunt this year with a crossbow with a scope, it is not as easy as people think. 

[bobcat]

I don't think crossbows should be legal during archery season, but it makes no sense that they're not allowed during modern firearm. The rumor we've heard on here is that they will be making them legal this year for modern firearm season, and that's how it should be. I never understood why they made them legal to use only in firearm restriction areas.

Lokidog, keep us updated on how you are liking that crossbow. I want to get one eventually, and I know nothing about them.

[mfswallace]

What's the range limit of a crossbow?

[Bob33]

Now if you could just find a good place to hunt deer that was in a firearm restricted area...

[JimmyHoffa]

Yeah, learning curve is much faster with the crossbow, especially with a scope.
Did they change the requirements for a legal crossbow in the regs last year?  Seems I recall there being some focusing on the bow (size/weight/draw weight), but now is only on minimum bolt weight.  I had thought the old requirements would be good for deer/bear, but now with no maximum should be good for elk too.

[JimmyHoffa]

What's the range limit of a crossbow?

depends on how much you weight you want to carry.  Since a winch can be used for cocking.
But crossbows have a more arced trajectory than bows.  The bolts are so much shorter in comparison to arrows for bows, that they can't use the leverage to stabilize so they use larger fletching.  That slows the bolt down a lot faster.

[Bob33]

What's the range limit of a crossbow?

I've read several instances of crossbows shooting 2" groups at 100 yards.

[Lucky1]

What's the range limit of a crossbow?

I saw a utube video of a guy shooting a PSE crossbow at 100 yards. He was very accurate. The PSE crossbow is about $1200.00. Some of the other crossbows might not be as accurate.

[bobcat]

Now if you could just find a good place to hunt deer that was in a firearm restricted area...

Some private property I have permission to hunt is essentially a firearm restriction area, since the landowner will only allow archery equipment. But since it's not an official state "firearm restriction area," crossbows cannot be used there. I'd like to use a crossbow (with a scope) during the modern firearm season. (for blacktail deer)

[lokidog]

Now if you could just find a good place to hunt deer that was in a firearm restricted area...

Hmmmm, have to do some scouting I guess..... 

 

Yeah, learning curve is much faster with the crossbow, especially with a scope.
Did they change the requirements for a legal crossbow in the regs last year?  Seems I recall there being some focusing on the bow (size/weight/draw weight), but now is only on minimum bolt weight.  I had thought the old requirements would be good for deer/bear, but now with no maximum should be good for elk too.

Not last year, 125lb min draw, 350 gr min bolt weight.  As far as I know, there are no maximums.

What's the range limit of a crossbow?

depends on how much you weight you want to carry.  Since a winch can be used for cocking.
But crossbows have a more arced trajectory than bows.  The bolts are so much shorter in comparison to arrows for bows, that they can't use the leverage to stabilize so they use larger fletching.  That slows the bolt down a lot faster.

As of now, less than 20 bolts fired, I would restrict my range to 30 yards.  With more practice, I think 40 would be doable.  However, this crossbow is a lesser draw and not as expensive as some and it seems really loud.  Also, not sure about your fletch theory as the ones on these bolts are only 3 1/2" long

[ghosthunter]

Not as easy as some may think. They can be heavy.  Walk around with your rifle or bow sideways. They can be rather cumbersome .

I could see sitting in blind or sitting and waiting, but spot and stalk or still hunting could get tiresome real soon.

Wouldn't be my choice.

I have had several game agents refer to them as poaching tools.
Accurate as a rifle and quiet.

[mfswallace]

"Accurate as a rifle and quiet"


Couldn't or rather shouldn't that be said about a compound bow if you practice and it sounds like they have similar effective ranges but the crossbow is heavier and more cumbersome, why shouldn't it be used during archery season?

[Westside88]

Drawing a bow and getting a shot is more difficult than a crossbow would be. I wouldn't support them for Archery other than disabled. I do think it should be acceptable as a "lessor" weapon option for modern

[Stein]

"Accurate as a rifle and quiet"


Couldn't or rather shouldn't that be said about a compound bow if you practice and it sounds like they have similar effective ranges but the crossbow is heavier and more cumbersome, why shouldn't it be used during archery season?

A bow is harder because you a) have to draw it (takes muscle, time and makes movement that can be detected) and b) can only hold it at full draw for a relatively limited amount of time and c) only have pin sights to use and d) can't shoot of a rest.

Honestly, I could teach a child to be crossbow accurate in an afternoon but the same can't be said about a bow.

[Brad Harshman]

"Accurate as a rifle and quiet"


Couldn't or rather shouldn't that be said about a compound bow if you practice and it sounds like they have similar effective ranges but the crossbow is heavier and more cumbersome, why shouldn't it be used during archery season?

Well put. 
Great job Loki.
And I agree with many others here: crossbows should be reserved for modern firearm only, or for disabled hunters.
A bow is harder because you a) have to draw it (takes muscle, time and makes movement that can be detected) and b) can only hold it at full draw for a relatively limited amount of time and c) only have pin sights to use and d) can't shoot of a rest.

Honestly, I could teach a child to be crossbow accurate in an afternoon but the same can't be said about a bow.

[Jellymon]

A recurve is harder because A)there is no letoff. B) there are no sights C) There is no release D) You have a much shorter range. 
The Traditional guys probably sit back and laugh at these discussions. Lol
Personally I don't like crossbows and would still use my compounds. If I can't shoot my vertical bows anymore I'll switch to rifle/muzzy.

[combs338]

 

[DIYARCHERYJUNKIE]

My 72# compound can shoot accurat at 100+ yards...  I would think that a 100 # cross bow could go way further with way more ke and fps.  With a scope you could probably kill deer at 150 + yards easy with very little practice.  Would be fun for the modern season. 

[Firedogg]

Now if you could just find a good place to hunt deer that was in a firearm restricted area...

It's tough finding them in firearms restricted areas. In most small communities where there are chunks of property they are plentiful.
b

[Katmai Guy]

My 72# compound can shoot accurat at 100+ yards...  I would think that a 100 # cross bow could go way further with way more ke and fps.  With a scope you could probably kill deer at 150 + yards easy with very little practice.  Would be fun for the modern season.

Unethical to shoot that far with either a compound or a crossbow.  You are still in the 300's with FPS and to much can happen in the time from release to arrival at the target.  Learn to sneak or buy a rifle.  JMHO

[runamuk]

Now if you could just find a good place to hunt deer that was in a firearm restricted area...

like his backyard

thats is cool I would like to have one but no point cant hunt a different season so may as well just haul my rifle around.  Sucks that I can't meet the "legal" requirements to hunt with a bow.

[huntingfool7]

My 72# compound can shoot accurat at 100+ yards...  I would think that a 100 # cross bow could go way further with way more ke and fps.  With a scope you could probably kill deer at 150 + yards easy with very little practice.  Would be fun for the modern season. 

Crossbows are much less efficient at transferring energy to the bolt than your compound bow.  A 100# crossbow is more similar to a 20# bow than your 72# hunting compound.

[Doublelunger]

The most challenging things when archery hunting are standing up and drawing back without getting busted...making the shot is the easy part. You don't have to do either with a cross bow.

[DOUBLELUNG]

Lots of good points on here.  I worked 8 hunting seasons in Wyoming, where crossbows are legal for anyone during archery or general (rifle).  About 85% of Wyoming archers hunt with a compound, about 2% trad and 13% crossbow.  Why not more crossbows?  The most common complaints I heard were: field points are like shooting a rifle, broadheads plane incredibly compared to bows, it takes a great deal of tuning to get bolts with broadheads to fire accurately; and they suck for spot and stalk compared to a bow: heavy, bulky, and loud. 

I kind of laughed when I moved here and heard all the rhetoric about crossbows as a poachers weapon.  In every state, I firmly believe, the true poachers weapon is the .22 rimfire rifle.

I don't have a dog in this fight.  I was given a crossbow, which I subsequently gave away and never hunted with.  I archery hunt exclusively with a compound, always have.  I have a classic Bear recurve and cedar arrows, which I greatly enjoy shooting; once I am an empty nester and have more time, I hope to shoot it daily and subsequently hunt with it.. 

[huntnnw]

My 72# compound can shoot accurat at 100+ yards...  I would think that a 100 # cross bow could go way further with way more ke and fps.  With a scope you could probably kill deer at 150 + yards easy with very little practice.  Would be fun for the modern season. 

Crossbows are much less efficient at transferring energy to the bolt than your compound bow.  A 100# crossbow is more similar to a 20# bow than your 72# hunting compound.

   I dunno about that..My dad hunts with one and it burries arrows considerbaly farther into the target then my 68lb bow at 40 yards.

[huntingfool7]

My 72# compound can shoot accurat at 100+ yards...  I would think that a 100 # cross bow could go way further with way more ke and fps.  With a scope you could probably kill deer at 150 + yards easy with very little practice.  Would be fun for the modern season. 

Crossbows are much less efficient at transferring energy to the bolt than your compound bow.  A 100# crossbow is more similar to a 20# bow than your 72# hunting compound.

   I dunno about that..My dad hunts with one and it burries arrows considerbaly farther into the target then my 68lb bow at 40 yards.

Is it a 68 lb crossbow?

[csaaphill]

Oh well! hope they get them legal I see nothing wrong in allowing a crossbow in archery season since that's they point they're still an arrow and nota gun!
If they're going to allow them in rifle why not archery
Whats the big deal too? if it's legal there why not here. thats the thing too were constantly bickering amongst ourselves!

[huntnnw]

MY 68LB BOW

[huntnnw]

I dont think they should be legal during Archery season here unless disabled or use during modern fireaem. Trophy class animals should not be entered in archery records if killed with a crossbow. Its not the same! not having to draw it is the huge part of archery. It would be so much easier to kill bucks and bulls with one..hear somehting coming and all you have to do is point in the direction and be ready! no movement just pull the trigger.

[csaaphill]

 

[AKBowman]

"He lives in WI where archers 65 and older can use a crossbow during archery season"

This year that reg changed and anyone can use a crossbow during archery season. No age or disabled restrictions. This is speaking of WI.

[AKBowman]

Now if you could just find a good place to hunt deer that was in a firearm restricted area...

Some private property I have permission to hunt is essentially a firearm restriction area, since the landowner will only allow archery equipment. But since it's not an official state "firearm restriction area," crossbows cannot be used there. I'd like to use a crossbow (with a scope) during the modern firearm season. (for blacktail deer)

It's perfectly legal to use any lesser weapon during a season in WA state. You can use archery during archery, archery and Muzzle during Muzzle and archery, Muzzle, rifle and crossbow during modern.

Firearm restricted area you can use crossbows

[Jellymon]

Now if you could just find a good place to hunt deer that was in a firearm restricted area...

Some private property I have permission to hunt is essentially a firearm restriction area, since the landowner will only allow archery equipment. But since it's not an official state "firearm restriction area," crossbows cannot be used there. I'd like to use a crossbow (with a scope) during the modern firearm season. (for blacktail deer)

It's perfectly legal to use any lesser weapon during a season in WA state. You can use archery during archery, archery and Muzzle during Muzzle and archery, Muzzle, rifle and crossbow during modern.

Firearm restricted area you can use crossbows

Nope, crossbows cannot be used during modern outside of firearm restricted areas.

[huntingfool7]

My 72# compound can shoot accurat at 100+ yards...  I would think that a 100 # cross bow could go way further with way more ke and fps.  With a scope you could probably kill deer at 150 + yards easy with very little practice.  Would be fun for the modern season. 

Crossbows are much less efficient at transferring energy to the bolt than your compound bow.  A 100# crossbow is more similar to a 20# bow than your 72# hunting compound.

   I dunno about that..My dad hunts with one and it burries arrows considerbaly farther into the target then my 68lb bow at 40 yards.

A hunting crossbow has twice the draw weight and shoots a projectile that's half as heavy as your bow to get similar velocity.
You can hear the inefficiency in the shot. That noise is from lost energy.

[jackmaster]

I don't think crossbows should be legal during archery season, but it makes no sense that they're not allowed during modern firearm. The rumor we've heard on here is that they will be making them legal this year for modern firearm season, and that's how it should be. I never understood why they made them legal to use only in firearm restriction areas.

Lokidog, keep us updated on how you are liking that crossbow. I want to get one eventually, and I know nothing about them.

[lokidog]

Oh well! hope they get them legal I see nothing wrong in allowing a crossbow in archery season since that's they point they're still an arrow and nota gun!
If they're going to allow them in rifle why not archery
Whats the big deal too? if it's legal there why not here. thats the thing too were constantly bickering amongst ourselves!

Did you read the first post?   

My 72# compound can shoot accurat at 100+ yards...  I would think that a 100 # cross bow could go way further with way more ke and fps.  With a scope you could probably kill deer at 150 + yards easy with very little practice.  Would be fun for the modern season. 

Crossbows are much less efficient at transferring energy to the bolt than your compound bow.  A 100# crossbow is more similar to a 20# bow than your 72# hunting compound.

   I dunno about that..My dad hunts with one and it burries arrows considerbaly farther into the target then my 68lb bow at 40 yards.

A hunting crossbow has twice the draw weight and shoots a projectile that's half as heavy as your bow to get similar velocity.
You can hear the inefficiency in the shot. That noise is from lost energy.

Very loud, anything over 30 yards, I think, would have a good chance at jumping the string.  This X-bow shoots a 412 grain (with 100 gr head) bolt (my 28 1/2" arrows are 470 gr).  They say it shoots at 315fps.  As far as killing deer at 150 yards, I think these bolts slow down very quickly as they are substantially larger in diameter than arrows for bows. 

I'm looking forward to "playing" with this more and see if using the cocking rope tightens up the grouping over hand cocking (I can easily cock this one by hand).  IMO, any X-bow less than 150 lb pull should not be used for hunting (125 is legal min.).  I might use this next year for deer here on the island if I don't shoot a big buck out from under Boss300's nose while trying to help him maintain his dink shooter status though.      

[lokidog]

I just used an archery ballistic calculator to compare my bolts and arrows.  I do not know the speed of my Bowtech Invasion shooting 28.5 inch StEpic 300 470 gr arrows @ 65lb, so for argument's sake I used the same speed as for the bolts.  Anyone want to calc my speed, go ahead.

I recorded info at 20, 40, 60, and 100 yards.  The drop from level was the same for both to 60 yards, at 100 yards the drop is 6" (about 3%) more for the X-bow.  The speed dropped off faster with the X-bow, but not as much as I thought, 2 fps less at 20 and 40, 4 fps less at 60, and 5 fps (1.8%)less at 100.  The big change was in the energy since the bolts only weigh 412 gr. 99 vs 86 ft-lbs @20, 94 vs 81, 90 vs 77, and 82 vs 70 @100 (15% less). 

What does this mean besides telling me not to take 60+ yard shots with either my bow or crossbow?  I don't know.  I do know, though, that there is a lot less movement taking the safety off vs drawing and I do know it takes a lot more time to get good with a bow, especially if you are one of the uber dedicated longbow or recurve hunters.

[DIYARCHERYJUNKIE]

My 72# compound can shoot accurat at 100+ yards...  I would think that a 100 # cross bow could go way further with way more ke and fps.  With a scope you could probably kill deer at 150 + yards easy with very little practice.  Would be fun for the modern season.

Unethical to shoot that far with either a compound or a crossbow.  You are still in the 300's with FPS and to much can happen in the time from release to arrival at the target.  Learn to sneak or buy a rifle.  JMHO

No I would never shoot that far.  Just saying the compound is still effective.  and a crossbow well effective passed that range.

[DIYARCHERYJUNKIE]

weird I thought they were way more effective than a compound.  never shot one.  if it cant kill at  150 LBS at 40 yards then well something's wrong...  306 ft per second would keep that heavy of a bolt zipping down range wayyyyy past 40 yards.  I have found the more weight I add the further my arrows go cause of momentum.

[magnanimous_j]

Personally, I don’t have any problem with them.

But I worked behind a gun counter for a couple years in college and some of the older guys would literally hide the crossbows in the storage room and only even admit we had any under duress. They claimed that crossbows attracted an “undesirable element.” So for some reason I never understood, I think there is a stigma attached to them.

Again, I’m pretty ignorant about crossbows, but I guess if I was being honest, they DO look a little more prone to catastrophic failure than a rifle or a bow. I wouldn’t want to be around when one of the bendy pieces snapped.

[Jonathan_S]

What's the range limit of a crossbow?

I've read several instances of crossbows shooting 2" groups at 100 yards.

Must have been fletched with FOBs 

[lokidog]

weird I thought they were way more effective than a compound.  never shot one.  if it cant kill at  150 LBS at 40 yards then well something's wrong...  306 ft per second would keep that heavy of a bolt zipping down range wayyyyy past 40 yards.  I have found the more weight I add the further my arrows go cause of momentum.

As was mentioned, the power stroke is much shorter so a 150 lb crossbow is not even close to a 70 lb bow for energy transfer.  Crossbow bolts are also shorter, fatter, and lighter thus leading to a faster drop off of speed and energy.  Sure they will fly downrange to a target at 150 yards, just like a bow will, but the energy is going to be a lot less (energy correlates to the square of the speed).  A person could probably be a lot more accurate with the Xbow since you can put it on a rest but to get the equivalent energy to a heavier arrow, the draw weight on the Xbow will have to increase.