What happened to cougar permits for hounds?

[trophyhunt]

I used to know the regs inside and out, but I really haven't paid much attention to the special permits for cougars that we have had in the past, so.  I know they used to have permits for hound hunting cats, are they not available anymore?  Prob a stupid question and I wish I could have logged on as a newby  but had to ask. 

[bearpaw]

I used to know the regs inside and out, but I really haven't paid much attention to the special permits for cougars that we have had in the past, so.  I know they used to have permits for hound hunting cats, are they not available anymore?  Prob a stupid question and I wish I could have logged on as a newby  but had to ask.

No longer exists, when the 5 year program ran out conservation northwest's favorite legislator stopped the program from being renewed in the legislature.

[trophyhunt]

I used to know the regs inside and out, but I really haven't paid much attention to the special permits for cougars that we have had in the past, so.  I know they used to have permits for hound hunting cats, are they not available anymore?  Prob a stupid question and I wish I could have logged on as a newby  but had to ask.

No longer exists, when the 5 year program ran out conservation northwest's favorite legislator stopped the program from being renewed in the legislature.

Any chance they could bring it up again?  We could really use some cat control with hounds.  Another question, if you drew a permit I know you were supposed to own dogs but, could guys with dogs take you hunting if you had the permit?  And if so, how come the guys with dogs didn't advertise their skills to people with permits or tags?  Thanks

[bearpaw]

I used to know the regs inside and out, but I really haven't paid much attention to the special permits for cougars that we have had in the past, so.  I know they used to have permits for hound hunting cats, are they not available anymore?  Prob a stupid question and I wish I could have logged on as a newby  but had to ask.

No longer exists, when the 5 year program ran out conservation northwest's favorite legislator stopped the program from being renewed in the legislature.

Any chance they could bring it up again?  We could really use some cat control with hounds.  Another question, if you drew a permit I know you were supposed to own dogs but, could guys with dogs take you hunting if you had the permit?  And if so, how come the guys with dogs didn't advertise their skills to people with permits or tags?  Thanks

I expect them to try again some day. It will depend on if and what langauge passes on who can get tags and how they can be used.

[bearkautz]

Hunting & Trapping Permits

Cougar Management Removal Permit Program

2015 Cougar Management Removals

Thank you for your interest in this program. After review of the complaint data and associated response to those complaints, the Department has determined at the present time no GMUs warrant the need for cougar conflict management removals (PSCR) for 2015. Please check again for the next opportunities and updates for the 2016 time period.

[trophyhunt]

Hunting & Trapping Permits

Cougar Management Removal Permit Program

2015 Cougar Management Removals

Thank you for your interest in this program. After review of the complaint data and associated response to those complaints, the Department has determined at the present time no GMUs warrant the need for cougar conflict management removals (PSCR) for 2015. Please check again for the next opportunities and updates for the 2016 time period.

Thanks for the info, but I wonder why they have determined that cougar numbers are not at the level where they need to be reduced?  I would hope that they look at the harvest numbers, and it seems to me most on this site, which I feel represents a large number of hunters in this state, feel one of the biggest problems with deer numbers are the number of cats.  I have added this concern and partial solution for hound permits to the comments on the wdfw page.

[Jingles]

I think it is probably part of the good ole boy network and the hell with permit as to who gets called when they need a dog man to assist in the locating a problem cats

[bearpaw]

Hunting & Trapping Permits

Cougar Management Removal Permit Program

2015 Cougar Management Removals

Thank you for your interest in this program. After review of the complaint data and associated response to those complaints, the Department has determined at the present time no GMUs warrant the need for cougar conflict management removals (PSCR) for 2015. Please check again for the next opportunities and updates for the 2016 time period.

Thanks for the info, but I wonder why they have determined that cougar numbers are not at the level where they need to be reduced?  I would hope that they look at the harvest numbers, and it seems to me most on this site, which I feel represents a large number of hunters in this state, feel one of the biggest problems with deer numbers are the number of cats.  I have added this concern and partial solution for hound permits to the comments on the wdfw page.

These tags that are only issued to hound hunters who are on a list when there are cougar problems.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=232-12-243

WAC 232-12-243
Public safety cougar removals.
(b) To be eligible for a public safety cougar removal permit (permit), the participant must be a Washington resident dog hunter who, at the time of application for a permit, possesses a valid big game license with cougar as a species option. The permit holder must use dogs while participating in a cougar management removal.
(c) Individuals eligible for participation in a public safety cougar removal will be randomly selected from the participant list. The department will issue a permit to the person whose name is selected from the participant list. Individuals selected will be notified by telephone or mail. Individuals selected must contact the department's enforcement program in Olympia and accept the public safety cougar removal permit within fifteen days of being notified. Failure to contact the department will result in forfeit of the permit and the individual will be placed on the participant list for later selections. Permits may not be sold or reassigned.
(d) Permit holders and all individuals who will accompany the permit holder must complete the department's public safety cougar removal education course prior to participating in a public safety cougar removal.

The 3 Year Pilot Cougar Control Program was on a 3 year trial. Anyone could apply for those tags. That program was not revised by the legislature and expired without being renewed.

Pilot Cougar Control Program
http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/00449/wdfw00449.pdf

[Houndhunter]

It got shut down because the pilot program was a safety hunt not a trophy hunt. It was designed strictly to cut down on all the problems lions were causing with people, in the beginning you had to shoot the first cat you caught. When they changed the rules so anyone could apply for those permits, prior to you had to own hounds, it ruined the whole outlook on the program. Guides started offering trophy hunts to those that drew permits and thats what got it shut down, because it was no longer a safety hunt but a trophy hunt and trophy hunting with dogs was banned years ago.

I know it did not get brought up in legislature, thats what I was told at least, but for the reasons I stated above is why

[WAcoyotehunter]

Allowing non hound hunters is exactly what screwed the pilot program.  It is a joke to allow non houndsmen to apply for a "safety removal" and expect to pass the red face test.  It became a trophy hunt as soon as they did that. 

Houndsmen got ripped again.

[bearpaw]

It got shut down because the pilot program was a safety hunt not a trophy hunt. It was designed strictly to cut down on all the problems lions were causing with people, in the beginning you had to shoot the first cat you caught. When they changed the rules so anyone could apply for those permits, prior to you had to own hounds, it ruined the whole outlook on the program. Guides started offering trophy hunts to those that drew permits and thats what got it shut down, because it was no longer a safety hunt but a trophy hunt and trophy hunting with dogs was banned years ago.

I know it did not get brought up in legislature, thats what I was told at least, but for the reasons I stated above is why

I like hunting my dogs and don't need to shoot every cougar myself, I think anyone should be afforded the opportunity to hunt with hounds. I have introduced thousands of hunters to hound hunting who will support the sport instead of hating hound hunting because they don't understand it or have never done it.

To set the record straight, I suggested in a letter directly to each of the legislators (including the legislators opposed) that if the hangup was guiding then the legislature should make it so that money could not be charged. The truth is that didn't make a bit difference, the opposition (Conservation Northwest) simply wanted to stop hound hunting and my suggestion didn't matter.

So blame all you want, but guides (myself specifically) were only used as an excuse for the real purpose of eliminating hound hunting.

[bearpaw]

Allowing non hound hunters is exactly what screwed the pilot program.  It is a joke to allow non houndsmen to apply for a "safety removal" and expect to pass the red face test.  It became a trophy hunt as soon as they did that. 

Houndsmen got ripped again.

It is being proven that by hunting cougars with hounds and releasing them that will reduce cougar problems. If cougars need to be killed, what difference does it make who pulls the trigger as long as hounds are used for hunting. The only difference I see is that some hound hunters were pissed that they couldn't get all the kill tags.

I think your best chance of building support for hound hunting is to include all hunters in the sport. 

[Houndhunter]

If WA had actual hound hunting seasons I'd agree with you to some extent, but those permits were all us few guys with dogs had left. The program was still very limited, but at least anyone who owned dogs still got to pursue cats every year. The pilot program wasn't going to bring hound hunting back, and when permits went pubic it ruined everything.

How many guys here on the site drew permits and never even went out because they didn't know a hound hunter? And you state hunting lions with hounds and releasing them is proven to reduce problems, well how many non hound owners are going to continue chasing lions after they fill their tag? Does that sound like a well thought out "safety removal" program to you?

Do I blame the guides entirely? No, but they sure didn't help the cause and should've supported resident hound owners instead of taking advantage of the situation. But its gone now and whats done is done, people can make up their own mind as to why the program went away but those are my thoughts.....

[bearpaw]

If WA had actual hound hunting seasons I'd agree with you to some extent, but those permits were all us few guys with dogs had left. The program was still very limited, but at least anyone who owned dogs still got to pursue cats every year. The pilot program wasn't going to bring hound hunting back, and when permits went pubic it ruined everything.

How many guys here on the site drew permits and never even went out because they didn't know a hound hunter? And you state hunting lions with hounds and releasing them is proven to reduce problems, well how many non hound owners are going to continue chasing lions after they fill their tag? Does that sound like a well thought out "safety removal" program to you?

Do I blame the guides entirely? No, but they sure didn't help the cause and should've supported resident hound owners instead of taking advantage of the situation. But its gone now and whats done is done, people can make up their own mind as to why the program went away but those are my thoughts.....

Permit holders should have been required to hunt with dogs if they drew those permits. But I don't think that was a reason for opposition, there are still seasons without hounds. It's true the opposition used guides as a reason to oppose the program. But I think the opposition was simply focused on stopping hound hunting and would have used another excuse if there had been no guides. My message and suggestion to make it illegal to accept payment for using hounds made no difference. The opposition wanted to stop hound hunting and they did. It's water under the bridge now, hopefully when the time is right hound hunting will happen again.

[WAcoyotehunter]

The opposition used the argument that the program had become a "trophy" hunt.

 I don't care to shoot a bunch of lions but I do want to run my dogs. 

I think it's a valid argument that we should not be at the mercy of some dude that just wants to kill a lion.  How many of those guys want to come over all the time to work on finding a good cat, letting females go, working dogs etc.... Not many in my experience.