The little things

[RadSav]

reading through all this makes me feel stoopid... I am having a hard time visualizing what you are saying. I know now that my bow is not tuned correctly though....HELP!

Which part are you having difficulty visualizing?

[JJB11B]

The first three posts is all I got through before I went cross eyed.... what I really need is to take my bow to someone that understands this process and show me how, I am a more hands on type of learner in cases like this

[RadSav]

What is your opinion of Steve's Archery.  He has always struck me as a guy that understands the fine details rather well.

[JJB11B]

What is your opinion of Steve's Archery.  He has always struck me as a guy that understands the fine details rather well.

Seems like a great guy but I get the feeling he gets annoyed of all my stupid questions.

[Muleyman27]

I just went to Steve's archery for the first time yesterday. Seems very nice and very knowledgable. answered all of my questions that I had. I took my bow in there to see if it needed tuning or not and he checked the cam timing . and looked it over and everything was good!! I got myself some arrows and broadheads and the foc came out to 11.7%. I would recommend Steve's archery over any other bow shops I have been to yet

[RadSav]

Good to hear.  I just sent him a care package of broadheads.  He was a lot of help when we were trying to buy Martin.  Plus he is always polite and factual at the shows.  I have not been in his shop, but I've always thought highly of his knowledge.

[RadSav]

What is your opinion of Steve's Archery.  He has always struck me as a guy that understands the fine details rather well.

Seems like a great guy but I get the feeling he gets annoyed of all my stupid questions.

That's a side effect of working retail.  The longer you work retail the more you lose faith in the human race!  I get annoyed just thinking about going back into retail.

[Vo2max]

What length are your arrows?  What bow/poundage/draw length are you shooting?

30" arrow, Hoyt Faktor 34, 75lbs draw, 32" draw (6'6" wing span and 6'3" tall... positive ape index )
I think your conclusion about the rest is where my glitch may be. I need to do another tune and see where that takes me along with bumping up the FOC as you've suggested. Thanks again for the help.

ERIK

[RadSav]

Why did you choose to shoot a 32" draw instead of 31"?

I also think with those numbers you may very well see an improvement by stepping up to the AAE MaxHunter vane.  Fantastic product.  I shoot it on all my three fletched arrows even when I don't need to!

Also according to my program you are WAY light on spine with that 300 shooting that length of arrow, draw length and the Safari poundage.  Looks like you would need to drop ten to 15 pounds of draw weight to reach optimal spine deflection with those numbers.  Needing Safari arrows for safari bows and gorilla arms  

You can get a .001" Black Eagle - Rampage 250 with 56 grain stainless half-outs that would put your current FOC at 13%!  While keeping that small diameter of the FMJ and optimizing dynamic spine.

Also in checking the numbers I see the FOC numbers in my system telling me you are closer to 7.8% on your FOC.

[Vo2max]

Why did you choose to shoot a 32" draw instead of 31"?

I also think with those numbers you may very well see an improvement by stepping up to the AAE MaxHunter vane.  Fantastic product.  I shoot it on all my three fletched arrows even when I don't need to!

Also according to my program you are WAY light on spine with that 300 shooting that length of arrow, draw length and the Safari poundage.  Looks like you would need to drop ten to 15 pounds of draw weight to reach optimal spine deflection with those numbers.  Needing Safari arrows for safari bows and gorilla arms  

You can get a .001" Black Eagle - Rampage 250 with 56 grain stainless half-outs that would put your current FOC at 13%!  While keeping that small diameter of the FMJ and optimizing dynamic spine.

Also in checking the numbers I see the FOC numbers in my system telling me you are closer to 7.8% on your FOC.

32" draw chose me! the 31" in draw Faktor is what i purchased... with D-Loop and release it made up for difference that I may have needed in needing a longer draw bow like the Hoyt Faktor 34 Long Draw.

Noted on the vane... I will get some and see how they go.

Based on the archeryadvantageonline.com site my spine, per the specs I entered, should be what i need. I have worked with Riverside Archery with the bow selection, arrow choice etc but cannot drive the 35min each way from Bellingham to have them figure all of this out as often as I would like to so I have taken to trying to learn and attempt it myself. Perhaps I should have them take a look again?

I am interested in which program you utilize for your calculations... if I can be more accurate with another program I'll use it instead. I could stand to cut the arrow down by a half an inch if needed... thought I'd try to see about bringing the kinetic energy up would help me... wanted complete pass throughs on elk (success thus far with first cow last September atleast). Archersadvantageonline.com says that my FOC was 8.4% with the set up I currently have. Interesting that they are different... Learning something in a big way throughout this conversation and thank you for the help.

ERIK

[RadSav]

I get complete pass thrus with 64# and 400 grain arrows   

I think the last elk that I did not get a pass through on was around '95 when I was shooting 240 fps and 2115 arrows with a 72# Hoyt.  Shot a spike twice behind the shoulder - once at 35 yards and once at 90 yards.  Both hit ribs and never broke through the opposite side.  A third arrow at 50 yards went right up the stink eye and out the throat...go figure

Last good bull I killed was with the Bowtech Admiral, 62#, A/C/C Pro Hunter at 18 yards.  Broke both shoulders and the arrow was laying on the ground where he stood at impact.  I didn't mean to hit him in the shoulders but I got excited and smashed the release...Man did he come in fast!!

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that the Rampage is going to be WAY more than enough.  And with the 56 gain half-out would give you the same weight and speed as what you have now.  Plus better spine and FOC.  30 fps edge over the 250 FMJ DG.


I've been running Archer's Advantage for quite a few years.  Not as accurate on FOC as doing it with a calculator and tape, but I've found them to be close enough and dang near perfect on dynamic spine.  And I have never had a bad sight tape on about 30 bows since signing up for the software.

... with D-Loop and release it made up for difference that I may have needed in needing a longer draw bow like the Hoyt Faktor 34 Long Draw

You lost me there.

[Vo2max]

I get complete pass thrus with 64# and 400 grain arrows   

I think the last elk that I did not get a pass through on was around '95 when I was shooting 240 fps and 2115 arrows with a 72# Hoyt.  Shot a spike twice behind the shoulder - once at 35 yards and once at 90 yards.  Both hit ribs and never broke through the opposite side.  A third arrow at 50 yards went right up the stink eye and out the throat...go figure

Last good bull I killed was with the Bowtech Admiral, 62#, A/C/C Pro Hunter at 18 yards.  Broke both shoulders and the arrow was laying on the ground where he stood at impact.  I didn't mean to hit him in the shoulders but I got excited and smashed the release...Man did he come in fast!!

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that the Rampage is going to be WAY more than enough.  And with the 56 gain half-out would give you the same weight and speed as what you have now.  Plus better spine and FOC.  30 fps edge over the 250 FMJ DG.


I've been running Archer's Advantage for quite a few years.  Not as accurate on FOC as doing it with a calculator and tape, but I've found them to be close enough and dang near perfect on dynamic spine.  And I have never had a bad sight tape on about 30 bows since signing up for the software.

... with D-Loop and release it made up for difference that I may have needed in needing a longer draw bow like the Hoyt Faktor 34 Long Draw

You lost me there.

Ok, ok... I hear ha r: pass throughout etc. 75lbs is not a challenge for me to pull back really. Even in horrible weather conditions so I automatically go for more pull than less... Perhaps I'm still old school... Or old habits die hard!

Anyway, having difficulty seeing how a 300 spine is too light... Shaft selector chart on Eastons site notes an FMJ 300 is just fine. If I upped the FOC through a a brass insert, changed the vanes per your suggestions I'm feeling confident I'd get the flight a bit more toward optimal. Or am I way off? Sorry to take so much of your time. If you prefer a PM or to tel me to take a hike I'll do either .

[RadSav]

My personal belief is that the Easton chart is way to generic these days.  They focus on static spine and often disregard variations of dynamic spine within a spine category.  Modern programs like Archer's Advantage really get down and dirty with dynamic spine.  For instance - they show the Rampage 250 as Optimal for your set up but don't even list the FMJ DG 250.  Same static spine, but drastically different performance in dynamic spine.

I was not sold on the program based spine charts over the Easton spine charts for the first couple years.  How could the Giant in arrows shaft history be so different and lacking, I thought.  Then over the years I began to see real life glaring results with the AA system over Easton's chart.  Not just for myself, but nearly 100% of the compound shooters I've helped over the years.  The system is so good that I have started to become lazy knowing I don't have to do the math...just type in the details and let them do it for me.  It really has been impressive.

Only down fall to the system is I have to accept that those guys are WAY smarter than I am

[Vo2max]

One thing I've learned is that the more I learn, the more I realize I know nothing!

Thank you for the help and advice RadSav. I'm going to go with your suggestions across the board. To argue/debate with someone who has your experience and knowledge would be ridiculous. I'll let know how the arrows turn out.

Thanks again.

Erik

[RadSav]

Just to clarify.  I do like the FMJ shafts.  Shot them for a few years and they shot great for me.  Quite a few animals down and never the slightest issue with penetration or stability.  Some say the new ones don't stay as straight as the old ones, but I do not have any information to make that claim myself.  I am only suggesting the stiffer shaft based on spine deflection and what I think will be a much more stable and better balanced arrow for your set-up. 

Going stiffer and improving the FOC while maintaining the exact same weight is just a bonus.  I am not a huge fan of the construction of most the cheap carbon arrows on the market.  In all carbon arrows I prefer the Carbon Express or Carbon Tech construction best.  But there are so few options in the 250 spine category sometimes a compromise must be made.  And with the straightness of the top end Rampage I think that is a very good compromise.  One that should treat you well, I believe.