Why don't some bull elk bugle??

[rtspring]

I'm stumped on this and in 29 years have never seen this. I hunt an area out of state that the bulls simply dont bugle!!! Last year over 4 months and I heard one bugle from a herd bull that had atleast  a 100 cows.  I watched him from 60 yards bugle. 

Yep I know wolves will shut them up but no wolves around.  A few lions but no wolves. 

I've been around alot of elk but never dealt with this silent game.  Trying to get a game plan for this year. 

And I also know for a fact the area holds alot of bulls, but just no bugling day or night..  Trying to locate a bull while archery hunting that isnt vocal is as tough as it gets....

Your thoughts? 

[vandeman17]

Is there a lot of hunting pressure? Maybe they get bugled at all fall long by hunters and no hunters and have gotten a little more savvy?

[HUNTINCOUPLE]

So many cows they don't have to bugle......

[TommyH]

Last year while trying to get some elk to talk, I watched 2 cougars come running down the mt.! They were moving in fast to my calls. There were elk around but couldn't get them to make a sound. Predators have a big part in how vocal they are.

[Limhangerslayer]

Turkeys and elk have a lot of coMmon characteristics in breeding season.   It might have to do with not Giving away his location of him and his cows to other bulls.   Really no reason for him to bugle, he had his ladies.

[HUNTINCOUPLE]

Turkeys and elk have a lot of coMmon characteristics in breeding season.   It might have to do with not Giving away his location of him and his cows to other bulls.   Really no reason for him to bugle, he had his ladies.

     Just about everything a turkey does an elk does. I to use them as comparison when explaining situations to people.

[pianoman9701]

Where we hunt near Trout Lake, they almost never bugle except after dark, usually not before 10 or 11 PM. A couple of guys I know park up high on logging roads long before first light and coast downhill on their bicycles, stopping about every few hundred yards to bugle and locate. In this area, they've been very successful. I'd be a little worried that they're trolling for cougars doing this but so far, they both keep making it back to camp!

[JPhelps]

RTSpring,

Something seems strange (like you already eluded too  )

With a herd bull and that many cows with satellites around like you  mentioned the competition should be high and the elk should be vocal on their own???

Is it always like that in this area?
Were the satellites mature or young?
Wide open terrain?
Were your hearing aids turned up?

Some of those answers may help answer but the elk should still be bugling?

[rtspring]

RTSpring,

Something seems strange (like you already eluded too  )

With a herd bull and that many cows with satellites around like you  mentioned the competition should be high and the elk should be vocal on their own???

Is it always like that in this area?
Were the satellites mature or young?
Wide open terrain?
Were your hearing aids turned up?

Some of those answers may help answer but the elk should still be bugling?

All of the satellites were atleast a mile or more, absolutely no hunting pressure other than me, broken timber with sagebrush,  other bulls were rags, not sure if its always like this but im telling ya it was SILENT.  I went out at night, used cow calls, bugle, locator bugles, early morning, late evening  . They just dont talk.  Im gonna guess and say 5-7 elk per sqaure mile..  Private property with bordered blm lands with no pressure..

[rtspring]

So many cows they don't have to bugle......

This is one point that I think figures in.  Very few cows seen other than the big fella that had a herd with him..  I have tons and tons of trail cam pics over a year with only 1 cow but lots of bulls..  Usually its the other way around.. 

[rtspring]

Is there a lot of hunting pressure? Maybe they get bugled at all fall long by hunters and no hunters and have gotten a little more savvy?

I hunted for 4-5 days 4 times over a month and only ran into one other hunter. And he was in his truck and not even elk hunting.  So pressure is almost none..  Other than me. 

[RadSav]

I expect those elk are gay!

[HUNTINCOUPLE]

I expect those elk are gay!

Yep that's it!!!!!

[rtspring]

I expect those elk are gay!

My thoughts exactly.... 

[JPhelps]

I expect those elk are gay!

Only explanation is that the satellite bulls are chasing each other aroud. That herd bull and the satellites should be going nuts especially if all the cows are in one herd.

[HUNTINCOUPLE]

I expect those elk are gay!

After thinking about this? This is the most logical idea. With all the gay people coming out of the closet and making homosexuality so publicised why shouldn't the elk. They figured out why fight over some cows when they can chase each other.......    

[Smossy]

tag

[whacker1]

Maybe they are Llama's?  They are much quieter than actual elk?   

[rtspring]

Huge thank you to elknut, after a long phone conversation we kinda have a plan of attack..   

Thanks a ton paul... 

[HUNTINCOUPLE]

Huge thank you to elknut, after a long phone conversation we kinda have a plan of attack..   

Thanks a ton paul...

So are you going to share your attack?,Or keep it in the closet........

[h20hunter]

I expect those elk are gay!

Is RadSav a gay elk whisperer?

[Ccortez]

I expect those elk are gay!

Is RadSav a gay elk whisperer?

I don't know whats worse the picture or you looking for a picture like this lol

[h20hunter]

Yeah....I know........if IT at work is looking to closely I'll have some weird google searches indeed!!!!!!!!!

[WapitiTalk1]

 

[h20hunter]

C'mon Phantom.......I think you have "Sceanario #6" right there!

[RadSav]

Huge thank you to elknut, after a long phone conversation we kinda have a plan of attack..   

   The more I read and the more I am exposed to elknut the more interested I get!  Would like to meet him one of these days.

[cbond3318]

C'mon Phantom.......I think you have "Sceanario #6" right there!

 

" you stumble into a pristine meadow, the thermals just changed and the gusty swirls have dissipated. The two young fellas have no clue you're there. Let em' finish?"

[Ccortez]

C'mon Phantom.......I think you have "Sceanario #6" right there!

which one to shoot and why? lol

[jackelope]

Huge thank you to elknut, after a long phone conversation we kinda have a plan of attack..   

Thanks a ton paul...

So are you going to share your attack?,Or keep it in the closet........

Start a thread asking why then keep the answer a secret??
 



 

[JPhelps]

Huge thank you to elknut, after a long phone conversation we kinda have a plan of attack..   

Thanks a ton paul...

So are you going to share your attack?,Or keep it in the closet........

Start a thread asking why then keep the answer a secret??
 



 

The answer will almost always be "force them to turn their temperature up" through aggressive calling and movement as long as terrain and cover allow it. 

[Ccortez]

is this the spot where you had the chilli and couldn't hold it any longer and caused a earth quack and was running side by side the herd bull? lol  .

[kentrek]

Would love to know what elknut said....I've ran into elk that are quite in western wa but not for that many days....they always have a couple days of pretty good vocals

Wait....was this high fence ?? 

[rtspring]

The answer we came up with is serious more aggresive calling, and I mean aggressive!!!   Like elknut said" kurt, what have you got to lose by being really aggresive?"  It makes alot of sense..

[RadSav]

I have always thought that in areas where there is one single Alpha Bull the pecking order establishes itself quickly and bugling has been poor.  Have always been able to get bulls to come in when hunting those areas, but most came in as alligators.  If that one bull had 100 cows that could be the case   For me, having multiple callers and using the Horne method has given positive results in those situations. 

On occasion I've found that one single tone or reed can be a game changer.  I remember one year where we thought all the elk had left Oregon and moved to Idaho.  Absolutely nothing was working!  Then one day I decided to take the old Larry D. Jones metal reed call and use it as a long distance cow call.  Instantly a bull fired up across the canyon from us!  After a few more calls we had five bulls chime in.  I didn't bugle once.  Just a few loud cows calls on that brain hemorrhage call.  We went silent and positioned ourselves between the two largest sounding bulls and killed one about three hours later.  They bugled the whole time even without us instigating anything other than the initial frenzy.

[RadSav]

Like elknut said" kurt, what have you got to lose by being really aggresive?"

Well, maybe 100 cows that are keeping all the other bulls around

[Karl Blanchard]

I expect those elk are gay!

Is RadSav a gay elk whisperer?

  "Why can't I quit you!" 

[coachcw]

preasure shuts elk up , even if its just scent around , predators for sure , rut activity and temp. both ways on that . I've seen a snow shut elk up more often than not . some times when elk are quiet during the daylight hours they talk at night . the jim horne method for early season calling works well , like he says the bulls don't have a calendar. I will cary many calls and often its just one they like . aggressive is always better to me , find elk and get after them if they bump find more . as well if a bull is coming to a cow call don't bugle him he may hang up . I all most always try to sound like the smaller bull . If your bugling a bull and he gets further away stop calling and haul ass to him I have seen bulls push cows often , get close and hit him again . in big open country limit calling once you locate use your eyes spot and stalk those open country bulls expect to see another bull when you call.  oh yeah It helps to be able to call .. there's something every elk wants to hear you just have to find it .

[Elknut1]

Ok guys, here goes! rtspring & I talked about many things during our conversation. He's hunting an area that has lots of bulls. He has seen these bachelor groups hanging out with each other throughout Sept. To date he has not seen these bulls pressuring the herd bull & his countless cows. This doesn't mean it's not occurring it means he hasn't seen or heard them doing so. He mentioned he'd be happy with any of these branch antlered bulls, his sights are not set on the herd bull only, this is a big factor, sure he'd take him but it's not him or nothing! We leaned more towards how to kill one of these bulls & not worry to much on why he had not heard much bugling! I have ways to take the herd bull here but not in this discussion!

  With this in mind I shared 2 top tactics that are real bull killers, one is for when bulls are quiet & the other is for when bulls are bugling each other because of a hot cow in the herd ! These tactics target the satellite bulls, many of these bulls are pretty darned respectable bulls in their own rights. I would not consider it an "aggressive action" it's no more than a blind/cold calling setup, it's just a method that bulls go through every year themselves! They are familiar with it & it draws on their curiosity, it is non challenging or intimidating to them when bulls are not in rut mode meaning there's no hot cows at the present to compete for. You've heard me talk about it before & I shared a Podcast with you a couple weeks ago.

  So here goes, when bulls are fairly quiet but you have a good idea where they are or you hear one maybe two bugles early in the morning or evening that represent a lazy type bugle, you may bugle or cow call trying to get them to respond again but no dice! You know there are no cows in heat or estrus or the bugling would be much more prevalent by multiple bulls. In this case their isn't. Get within 150 yards to 200 yards of where you feel they are, make sure you have good wind from where you expect them to come from. I like having a good setup here where they cannot come in from behind & wind me. Too, I like having a dead tree or downfall where I can simulate raking & light thrashing. Such areas are with an opening to my rear as elk prefer not to come through them & expose themselves, other things would be obstructions or small knobs of some sort that forces these elk to come in from left to right or straight on. Your setup also needs to be tight enough if you're alone that oncoming elk MUST come into your range before they can see where the source of calling is coming from. They can come in very quiet at times. If you do not do this they will hangup outside of your range where they feel they should be able to see the source of the calling. This is crucial as you force them into search mode.

   Once setup here go into an Advertising calling sequence. This is done with only Bull sounds, no cow calling here at all. You are not trying to challenge here just express yourself as a new kid on the block in their area. This is common practice among bulls. You need to be creative & unpredictable in your calling, mix up your volume, pitch & intensity, light chuckling to no chuckling to 1 chuckle to 4-5 of them before or after your creative bugling, again you're mixing it up here. This sequence will go on for 30-40 minutes as you paw the ground, rake a little & squall that bugle, at times I will inject 2-3 pants through the grunt tube with my voice as I make it real. This sequence will draw on these unseen bulls/bull & their curiosity can get the best of them as they want to know who this guy is! During rutting times whether pre-rut or peak-rut quieter times this method will draw them your way to size you up, many times a bull will stop on his way to you & start raking himself to draw you out so you can look each other over, if this happens either stay put & let him wander in or move on him if you have the cover for a shot! All in all this is a real satellite bull killer!

  The 2nd one I mentioned to rtspring was the Breeding Sequence, this is used when there are multiple bulls bugling for the hot cows attention near a herd bull & his cows. This sequence requires both cow & bull sounds with bull sounds being the dominant driving force here. What you are imitating is the same breeding pattern that the real bull with his hot cows is exhibiting, this is what had the satellites congregate to them in the first place. Again, this is to draw the satellites in not the herd bull. One nice thing with this method is it rarely draws cows in first, that's a big plus!

  If you want the full experience on setup & exact sounds used I do have the Advertising/Breeding Sequence on DVD that we use demonstrated & discussed. There is some good info on it. We have used these sequences for years with many dead bulls on the ground as a result, I know you guys can do it too.

  ElkNut1