Thumb safety - good idea for a rookie?

[HawkCreek]

I agree with what you nearly all you say, Magnumb, but we'll have to agree to disagree about external safeties on a pistol.
I had the safety on in every structure I ever entered while deployed (and yes even involving an incident with an M9). The safety didn't slow me down, safety comes off as the gun comes up. If someone isn't willing to put that much effort into training then I question how worried they actually are. I too own guns both with and without an external safety, haven't noticed that it makes much difference.
Kind of like 01 or long range peep, or 9mm vs. .45 it's one of those debates that will never end.

[magnumb]

I will never argue the fact that training is key.  You obviously need to take your training seriously, as did I.  USMC, 'Nam '69-'71, 28 years LEO retired.  I certainly 'get it'......  .

You and I are and were, necessarily, better trained than most and are/were better prepared than most civilians not having had such experiences.  We are not the norm........haven't been since I was 18, in that regard........

I do wish you the best in any and all future endeavors and most importantly, I sincerely want to thank you for your service HawkCreek.

Semper Fi.................no matter our service affiliations or our opinions......


Oh....and BTW.....the 9mm...........

[kbrowne14]

Mass, mass, mass majority of all gun owners go to the range and shoot statically on a line.  They are not allowed to draw from the holster, they load the mag at a table behind them, then take the full mag to the gun which is sitting on some sort of table in their bay, load the gun, shoot, drop the mag, drop the gun, and go back to the table. 

It is in my opinion, and my own experience that if you don't have thousands of repetitions with drawing, sweeping a safety, and engaging a target, in a gunfight or stressful situation where your gun is needed, you WILL NOT sweep a safety.  The average gun owner, will not sweep a safety in a gunfight.  If they think they will, they are wrong.  If he is going to be an average gun owner that won't train for thousands of reps of sweeping a safety on a presentation drill, he should get a gun without a safety. 

I have seen so many people get up on a firing line, draw their pistol, and click, they think they have a malfunction, they rack the slide, or look at the gun, then click again, then they realized the safety was on.  If you want a safety, train to use it.  If you don't think you will train to get thousands of reps on it, then get a pistol with no safety.  Don't get a gun with a safety because you think its safer.   

[HawkCreek]

Oh....and BTW.....the 9mm...........

HaHaHa! Well just to keep the pot stirred my most carried sidearm the last two years has been a Glock... in 10mm...

Semper Fi

[boneaddict]

Safety.  Just shoot the dang thing once in awhile. 

Some of you act like you are in combat situations 99% of the time.   99.9% of all situations can be remedied without escalating to pulling a piece.   In that .1% of the time, you better have the nerves and mindset to be able to flick a switch.  I'm surprised more of you don't shoot yourselves in the foot. 

[mountainman]

Safety.  Just shoot the dang thing once in awhile. 

Some of you act like you are in combat situations 99% of the time.   99.9% of all situations can be remedied without escalating to pulling a piece.   In that .1% of the time, you better have the nerves and mindset to be able to flick a switch.  I'm surprised more of you don't shoot yourselves in the foot. 

[Bofire]

  ahhh reality!!
Carl

[magnumb]

Oh....and BTW.....the 9mm...........

HaHaHa! Well just to keep the pot stirred my most carried sidearm the last two years has been a Glock... in 10mm...

Semper Fi

And mine.....the G23 from waaaaaay back when first introduced.....in .40 cal. - for what, the last 20-25 years?  I have added two G27's when they also were first introduced and oftentimes interchange my daily carry with this subcompact model......and in the last 2 weeks, I added two G43's, as well.  I haven't had a chance to truly wring them out, but will soon be doing so and might give my layman's perceptions of any pro's and/or con's notable to mention. 

You only gave me the choices of 9mm or .45 cal earlier, so I did my very best given the immense pressure I was under at that time......

[magnumb]

Safety.  Just shoot the dang thing once in awhile. 

Some of you act like you are in combat situations 99% of the time.   99.9% of all situations can be remedied without escalating to pulling a piece.   In that .1% of the time, you better have the nerves and mindset to be able to FLICK A SWITCH.  I'm surprised more of you don't shoot yourselves in the foot.

I had already mentioned that the chances of a potentially deadly encounter was very, very minimal, at best, so that particular aspect had already looooong been established and uncontroverted.  What the focus then became was what other members feelings/thoughts/idea's and preferences were in regards to their personal need and/or desire in choosing to carry a firearm with an external safety.....or not.

Let's take any Glock and a series 80, 1911.  Both are particularly well thought of and are likely the most popular designed/manufacturered handguns available to the 'average' gun owner.  Both have 3 safeties.  Glocks have a trigger, firing pin and drop safety.  The series 80 1911 also has a firing pin safety, but unlike the Glock, it also incorporates a grip safety and a thumb safety.  Fair enough....?

Most every car accident, whether deadly or not, involves the inability of a person to react to their specific circumstances quickly enough.  That is why almost every car company on the planet is either coming out with their own version of systems designed to react before you do to immediate dangers while driving or they are frantically attempting to design such a program.  These will not be accessories in a few years, these systems will become standard equipment eventually on all cars as did anti-lock brakes, seat belts and airbags.  Why....?

As I stated before, every person's brain, unless completely blindsided and totally unaware of an impending danger, immediately registers first that they are in harm's way.  Their brain then immediately locks in on what efforts they can immediately employ to either end or minimize that particular situation.  Then.....no matter how many times one has been in a similar situation, your reaction time can still only be as fast as you can physically accomplish the task.  Common sense...not rocket science.

Add confusion, extreme fear, a totally foreign interaction with a menacing individual and your innate unwillingness to hurt or to take another one's life which then further makes for even more of a delayed response, no matter how short, any and all other physical tasks that will necessarily need to be addressed prior to you being able carrying out your goal of keeping you and/or yours safe......all of these factors will make your reaction time longer.  It is simple math, physics and most of all.....human nature that makes us just that bit more vulnerable, no matter how practiced that we are and how much more confident that we have become. 

If one can employ a system that produces the same effect as another system, but does it faster while also expending less physical and mental efforts to do so, what could possibly be the downside of that...? 

An external thumb safety, IMHO, serves absolutely no purpose.  It is an external mechanism that makes the firearm less user friendly by protruding (no matter how much or little) off of the frame, makes for more moving parts (not a recipe for more reliability), adds to the overall weight of the firearm and most importantly........is more of a detriment to the user than to the potential 'receiver', given the obvious fact that it exists on the frame of your gun, your practice regiment calls for you to have to disengage that thumb safety prior to moving on to the next step (no matter how fast and proficient at doing so that you may have become) and just because this 'mechanism' exists on that firearm which you freely chose over other designs, it now has become that one more thing that you must disengage and execute perfectly and quickly prior to even starting to attempt the final step in order to minimizie or eliminate your immediate threat.

If our reaction times and their subsequent physical response's were enhanced even slightly, there would be far fewer vehicle accidents, more home runs, less dropped dishes, more punches missed and landed and so on.  But we can only react as fast as our mental and physical qualities allow us to react.  Certainly training helps and once again, I advocate strongly for such training.  But as the vehicle companies are doing and for the exact same reasons, our safety and well being are tied directly to the amount of time it takes to react to dangerous and potentially deadly situations.

IMHO.....the addition of a 'mechanism' that serves no obvious purpose but to delay a more immediate response to a potentially deadly situation, seems counterproductive.....at best.

"Flick a switch", as was so kindly offered as another option above....................or don't.  Why not take a second or two right now and 'flick a switch' on any wall and then not flick that same switch..  Which one took more time and hand movement......? 

Consider this as well..........when/if you do participate in this 'test'.  You are likely right now in the confines of your very safe home, everyone in your home is trustworthy and you can count on each other in all respects, your dog does his guard dog thing reasonably well, it's daylight out and you're not feeling vulnerable in the least.  Not a single feeling of the aforementioned 'normal' day to day feelings of being safe, secure, relaxed and calm will exist when and if confronted with a potentially deadly encounter......none.  Those feelings will be replaced with totally the exact opposite feelings......and some that you never could have imagined possible. 

A standard household light switch is approx. the same size as a thumb safety.  How many times have you reached for/slapped at a light switch in your own home that you've 'flicked on' easily thousands of times before and failed and you had to take another stab at it...?  Actually, how many times have you taken more than one swipe at it...?  I know that I have done that alot, but perhaps I'm just more uncoordinated than most, but I don't think so.  And since I'm all in here.....I've even switched on the light switch and then simultaneously and quite unintentionally switched it off again.  Now I'm sure that I'm the only one who has done that.  I'd call thousands of times doing something over and over, anything, being pretty well practiced.  Soooo....is it really fair and not being pretentious to assume that it is so easy for everyone to just "flick a switch" when your world has suddenly just turned into the biggest nightmare of your life....?  I don't think so. 

As always......good to have all sorts of choices.....

 



 

[NW-GSP]

Magnum I could not have said it better.

I have been hunting upland and waterfowl for 19 years and I always keep the safety on while hunting and a couple of times every season I forget to switch the safety off. Since it is a hunting situation it does not bother me that I missed a shot due to me forgetting the safety. If it was a situation where I was trying to defend myself with a pistol it would make the difference between life and death.

[magnumb]

Magnum I could not have said it better.

I have been hunting upland and waterfowl for 19 years and I always keep the safety on while hunting and a couple of times every season I forget to switch the safety off. Since it is a hunting situation it does not bother me that I missed a shot due to me forgetting the safety. If it was a situation where I was trying to defend myself with a pistol it would make the difference between life and death.

 .....good points and I've quite unintentionally saved my own share of many birds from a sudden demise in just that same manner.. 

Yep......chukars and mallards are not family.......

[gallion_t]

I didn't read through some of the longer posts but to me its a simple answer. Get the one with the safety. Nothing says you have to have the safety on at all times. To me its better to have the option and not use it then want the option and not have it.

[magnumb]

I didn't read through some of the longer posts but to me its a simple answer. Get the one with the safety. Nothing says you have to have the safety on at all times. To me its better to have the option and not use it then want the option and not have it.

That is certainly an option and perhaps that approach works for many things, but IMHO.....not so much with my primary carry weapon...... . 

The 'Devil's Advocate' response...........a thumb safety, no matter how well it 'melts' into the gun, is still a useless protrusion if you never intend to use it.  You go down, your 'brand new to firearms' buddy that you have mentored remembers that you never employ a thumb safety, but that day you do, he grabs your handgun as additional support and must put it into action in a close range, 'right now' situation.  Oops........"just a second please, there's been some miscommunication"...... .  Or much more likely, you yourself choose to run with a safety on somedays (Monday, Wednesday, Sunday maybe...... ) and the remaining days, you go to safety off mode.  In other words, reading your hypothetical suggestion such as it is.......you have not committed or dedicated yourself to carry either way and that is neither wise nor a tactically sound approach to take when it involves your primary carry weapon......or any weapon.   

My point being.....why make any handgun a source of, 'I think that I'll improvise and just use it this way', instead of how it was designed to be used and also instead of just choosing the handgun with the design that you have total confidence in and feel comfortable using right from the get go....?. 

Why buy a much more highly technologically advanced camera than you can use when you only want to take pictures of your family in front of the hearth twice a year when you know that's exactly what you're going to do and no more....?  You likely don't and won't do that because who needs all those extra buttons and settings to take a simple picture...?  Those extra gadgets just become a further hinderance to your intended and simple goal........taking a picture.

Simplicity is not a bad thing, it is quite often the most reliable and efficient way to go.  Splash, flash, nostalgia and not nearly as simplistic does absolutely nothing for me.

So yes.......it is an option, but IMHO, not a prudent one.

Best of luck......

[Windwalker]

Wow, this thread has legs..



My take on it - personal preference. Your gun, do as you wish.
Shoot it and see if you like it.
If you get another M&P (or several more) make sure the safeties are the same.   

Proficiency and training is the key... and a bazillion repetitions to build good habits.

No "extra" safety's for me.

[6.8mmARHunter]

Do any revolvers have thumb safetys? Are they not safe?

I recently picked a 9mm shield with out the safety. There were several reasons behind this. I bought two other semi-auto pistols in the last year or so. They were named similarly, so I assumed they would operate similarly. One was stryker fire and the other was hammer fire (not really important...) But more importantly, they both had thumb safetys, one you pulled down to fire, the other you pushed up to fire. When I was shooting with my wife She was confused... Anyway, now there's no confusion, pull the gun out, then pull the trigger - Bang. Simple.