Advance Hunter Program Axed???

[fishunt247]

I heard a rumor that the WDFW was getting rid of the Advanced Hunter Program. Honestly, I think it would be great if they did this. My family and our neighbors have called the WDFW to report these "advanced hunters" cutting and opening the elk fence to allow elk below the fence into the orchards by our houses so they can shoot them...in years past and already this winter. Sad. This is hunting to these guys. All the game dept. said was "its really hard to catch them doing that." Not really, they open it in the same corner every year. Don't get me wrong, there are probably some great guys in this program, but in my experience, not so much. And I know of another couple guys who were giving the answers out for the Advanced hunter test and were shooting more elk than they were supposed to. Again, nothing done. One of these "advanced" men was convicted of poaching elk in a feeding station many years ago.  Man this program just really chaps my ass. It just seems to me that the program gets taken advantage of and becomes more of a slob hunt than anything. Is this rumor true? Any other opinions on this?

[WDFW-SUX]

Im not renewing

[HntnFsh]

Actually,I beleive they just reopened it for apps.

[BENCHLEG]

i hope that they nix it also. i know a few people that are so-called advanced hunters and they are also outlaws. nice to see this program work.

[billythekidrock]

Not sure if they are going to axe the program, but I read something about the possibility of eliminating the positions of the support staff due to budget cuts.

[fishunt247]

Maybe thats what they meant, it was a second hand rumor so who knows how blown up it was. Man I just wish they would get rid of it. If they have these "problem elk" that advanced hunters are killing, give those tags strictly to youths or disabled hunters or hunters 65 and older instead. That seems to make more sense to me.

[billythekidrock]

If they have these "problem elk" that advanced hunters are killing, give those tags strictly to youths or disabled hunters or hunters 65 and older instead. That seems to make more sense to me.

The problem with that is most youth or disabled hunters don't have the ability to deal with all the issues related to "problem elk". The program just needs to monitor itself better and with the new rules and background checks hopefully it will work out.

[C-Money]

I would like to see the program go away too. Every hunter should have some chance to hunt problem deer/elk. I was really POed when they made 371 access for advanced huntes or permit only for elk.

[Crunchy]

The program doesnt need to be axed, just controlled better.  Sorry to hear about your fence, but dont let that if done by some Advanced hunter types ruin your impression of everyone.

[flyguide]

It seems to me around Ellensburg that a lot of the elk being shot during the AHE season (that I have witnessed) are on good winter range without any threat to private property.  The overall heard is below population goals yet the AHE are still harvesting a lot of elk migrating to the Quilomene.  A portion of which are bull calves, which doesn't help the bull population and therefore we are having a tough time getting any big bull tags delegated to us.  I know the main problem with the bull count lies with a different form of late season "hunting" but it has to contribute.  Also, it seems like we might be going backwards here because you can't even bowhunt for cows (due to heard #'s being below average) in the Collokum any more, yet the AHE guys shoot dozens upon dozens of them during the wintertime.

I'm not saying the program should be axed, far from it.  But I do I think that the same scrutiny should be put into evaluating the effect of these AHE hunts on population goals that are put into the general seasons and permit seasons.  Lord knows that the general seasons are the first thing to be cut back.  I would rather see these AHE season examined first and the need analyzed before its too late and we start hurting the general population of hunters.

[Crunchy]

Well I dont hunt the areas mentioned, so I know I am not part of the problem.  I didnt think that AHE took that many elk in that area.  Permits issued and hunter success are two different things.  I will look at the success numbers from last year.

[C-Money]

We need to stop the AHE from killing the winter elk in 329. I know there is a few that stay down low all year, but there is a lot more this time of year. I would like to see permits issued by draw, and farmers with crop/haystack damage joing a program placing signage on their land notifing permitted hunters that they are having elk problems. Get permission, and got fill your freezer! This would target farmers that would need help, and leave the rest of the elk alone! My dream is to draw a branch bull tag in 329, and the way things are going, I might never get to.

[Wahoo]

A portion of which are bull calves

This comment was made in an earlier post which confused me as my understanding is the 3911 hunt is anterless only. 

[WAcoyotehunter]

We need to stop the AHE from killing the winter elk in 329. I know there is a few that stay down low all year, but there is a lot more this time of year. I would like to see permits issued by draw, and farmers with crop/haystack damage joing a program placing signage on their land notifing permitted hunters that they are having elk problems. Get permission, and got fill your freezer! This would target farmers that would need help, and leave the rest of the elk alone! My dram is to draw a branch bull tag in 329, and the way things are going, I might never get to.

The 3911 boundary (overlaps 329) is really well thought out to manage the elk that are down low and to 'haze' them away from the farms.  the boundary keeps AHE guys from going up into the quilamine to hunt- you're basically hunting private land in the valley.
 I don't think many bull calves are being taken there.

[C-Money]

Thanks for the info, I do understand that 3911 is down low. I hunted it before it went AHE. I Did a lot before AHE. Use to hunt the firing center too. As for 3911, seems like the only way to solve the problem with crop damage would be to hunt with a spot light. The elk are in the farmers fields at night. Come in at night and leave before sunrise. They are educated. But a lot still get killed. I tried to become an AHE. Trying to put in your time as a volunteer was tough and I ran out of time. The local fish hatchery was not needing much help, and drew a blank on where I could put the time in locally. I did try, but got the cold shoulder from the hatchery due to limited work. I called every few weeks. Should have tried harder. Would like things to back to the way they were before AHE.

[WAcoyotehunter]

You're right about that- the elk are usually out pretty early in the morning! 

If you decide you want to do your AHE hours, let me know.  We can come up with something in Pend Oreille county...maybe during spring turkey?

[C-Money]

Very nice, and thank you!

[buck470]

I just got my Master Hunter Card this fall, and have ran across my fair share of "slob" hunters, I made phone Calls, told the approiate  authorities what i saw, as any hunter should do.

Getting into the program isn't that hard, almost everybody can get in if they do the work, unless you have a wildlife conviction.

I wish they would change the name of the program, as i feel it causes a few, maybe minor ego issues.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that these "Extra"  hunting opportunities are nothing more than problem solving for WDFW and i'm happy to do my part and earn them. Elk raiding orchards and hay stacks, the farmers file claims and are sometimes compensated by WDFW, that money could go to other causes, if you let a few people go out and hunt/haze the Elk eventually the Elk move on/out of the area. From what I gather from the MH website there are fewer than 1600 Master hunters in Wash. as of 12/09/08.

It's all hunting, and we need to be supportive of each hunting method/season. We also need to police each other, go out in the field thinking that other hunter will turn you in if you screw up, we'll get allot less bad press, eventually. And don't be affraid to call in on someone, your protecting something you love, Hunting.

[fishunt247]

Great comments. Revising may be the best, most feasable option. But buck470, my family and our neighbor have called John McGowan (a guy that is high up in the Yakima elk program) for the past couple of years about guys cutting holes in the elk fence (we gave the guys' names even) and it didn't do sh*t. He didn't seem to care to much, I guess because they see the AHE guys doing them a service. And I'm sure there are good guys like yourself out there. But the guys hunting the elk by the Tampico store, the very end of the elk fence where the elk can take two steps and either be in or out of the unit, seems a little iffy to me. They mostly can only raid the orchards in West Valley (Yakima), besides the ones off Slavin Rd. maybe, if they get through the fence somehow. I guess it just needs better monitoring.

[buck470]

I will admit there are still some problems with the program, and can see one's fustration, if you give them everything they need to convict someone, and nothing happens.
I think one of the biggest improvements is, you can't be a master hunter if you have a wildlife conviction, eventually they will get there's, maybe not for what they are doing behind your place, but something else.

The guy's up by Tampico store have Pissed off quite a few of the Neighbors up that way, the addition of a new gate on the Private road was a result. there's a whole section at the end of that road that is Public, can't access it now.

And this may sound like high horse talk, but I did some extra work for some extra hunting oppurtunities, and I'm going to enjoy them and Protect them. So if I see some one outright breaking the rules, I'm on the Phone.

[bearhunter59]

The Advance Hunter Education Program was axed last year.  A new WAC and RCW established the revised Master Hunter Program.  Many changes have been made to it to eliminate these type of people from the program.  There is plenty of information on the the WDFW Master Hunter website.  Also, if things go right, Eyes In The Woods may get an ALEA grant and be able to help John McGowan with these issues over there.  We have talked to John on many occassions and will be working with him and other wildlife managers to assist them with these issues in the upcoming years.

My question would be, How do you know for sure these guys have cut the fence, and that it wasn't destroyed by the elk?  If you get pictures or video of this, and give it to John, I guarantee he will turn it over to enforcement and they will follow it up.  BTW, John is part of the wildlife division, (ie...a wildlife manager), not the enforcement division.  He has no more authority to apprehend anyone than you or I.  He has to contact an enforcement officer too....just like you or me.

The program has changed and many of these type of individuals have either been denied entry into the new program, or didn't apply because they knew they couldn't pass the background check that is required now, of all Master Hunters and Master Hunter applicants.  Any that have made it in, will eventually be pointed out, and their days as a Master Hunter will be coming to an end.

The other thing I would like to point out is that Master Hunters are not the only ones over there able to hunt.  There are plenty of other hunters out there on special permits or draw tags; not to mention the hunters out there claiming to be Master Hunters and really aren't.

As for not being able to get enough hours of conservation work...BS!!!  I have found that the problem seems to be, that the ones that claim to not be able to find work, means they don't want to figure out and arrange a project on their own, but want someone else to lead them around by the nose, and tell them what they should do.  Just writing this I can think of at least five different type of projects that an individual could easily get approval for and do with the help of a couple of other Master Hunters.  Granted, that means, that one of them would actually have to have the initiative to get off their ass and actually do something on their own...Hell, last year in 8 months timeframe, I put in over 300 hours of volunteer work...and I only needed to do 20.  And I work a full-time job, plus travel out of town on business over 60 days a year.  And guaranteed I will get alot more hours than that this year, if I get the ALEA grant approved that we are applying for.  And if my program gets approved, I will need a lot of Master Hunters help to accomplish the project.  I will probably need anywhere from 6 to 20 Master Hunters to help run the program, and everyone of them will definitely put in more than 40 hours in one year.  That's just to run the program.  The actual projects in the program will require many, many more Master Hunters.  I won't explain more now, I want to wait until we have submitted the grant request and got approval.  If approved I will be contacting each and everyone of the Master Hunters.

The revised Master Hunter program requires alot of personal initiative to complete, but it is not that difficult to get your hours if you really stop and think about it and apply yourself.  And don't wait until the last month before your time to get certified, before you start looking for projects.

[buck470]

All you have to do is go to the meetings they set up, put your e-mail on the list, I got updates on all the Projects that came thru Anthony Novac (E-Burg), Got my hours No Problem, Meet some good people in the Process. People Came from the coast to work a weekend in Yakima. With the 3 hours credit for CORT class I knocked mine out in one weekend.

One bit of advise, knock out your hours early in the spring, It's allot cooler building Elk Fence! I think I picked the hottest weekend of the summer.

[fishunt247]

The chances of elk cutting a hole in the exact same spot for the last 4 years or so is unlikely, I think. They are being fed hay less than a mile away, why would they have to break through the fence? And I personally know and have talked to the orchardists, and from the insinuations they give... But hell, maybe my family and all my neighbors and other concerned people around that area are wrong, who knows. I'll try calling enforcement directly next time.

[GoPlayOutside]

bearhunter...I'm interested in what your ALEA program is dealing with?

[Up a Creek]

Just a thought,

This is just what keeps hunters from accomplishing more in the state. The master hunter program has it's problems just like everyother program in the state, there's always pros and con's. The last thing hunters in general need to be doing right now is arguing amongst them selves. We don't see the tribes, commercial fisherman or animal activists disagreeing over every other issue when they want to achieve a goal. Hoping a program that opens up new opportunities for hunters will go away while tribes are taking them away (40 + big bull opportunities in the Colockum) is counterproductive. The Master Hunter program is an effort to improve the image of hunting and improve landowner relations if there continue to be problems it will go away on it's own.

Grillmaster                            If ya can't eat it don't kill it!

[murphyranch]

I agree with bearhunter59 I had no issues getting my hours and have already worked more hours than I need for the next 5 years. If your truly interested in the program you will find a way. I joined the eyes in the woods program and have very much enjoyed working the projects to help improve the lands and wildlife in our state. I frankly would do it now even if I didn't have any special hunt privileges. I think that the state and hunters in general are better off with this program. The program is very heavy leaning towards ethics and I think this in time will give hunters a better name amongst the general public.

As for not being able to get enough hours of conservation work...BS!!!  I have found that the problem seems to be, that the ones that claim to not be able to find work, means they don't want to figure out and arrange a project on their own, but want someone else to lead them around by the nose, and tell them what they should do.  Just writing this I can think of at least five different type of projects that an individual could easily get approval for and do with the help of a couple of other Master Hunters.  Granted, that means, that one of them would actually have to have the initiative to get off their ass and actually do something on their own...Hell, last year in 8 months timeframe, I put in over 300 hours of volunteer work...and I only needed to do 20.  And I work a full-time job, plus travel out of town on business over 60 days a year.  And guaranteed I will get alot more hours than that this year, if I get the ALEA grant approved that we are applying for.  And if my program gets approved, I will need a lot of Master Hunters help to accomplish the project.  I will probably need anywhere from 6 to 20 Master Hunters to help run the program, and everyone of them will definitely put in more than 40 hours in one year.  That's just to run the program.  The actual projects in the program will require many, many more Master Hunters.  I won't explain more now, I want to wait until we have submitted the grant request and got approval.  If approved I will be contacting each and everyone of the Master Hunters.

The revised Master Hunter program requires alot of personal initiative to complete, but it is not that difficult to get your hours if you really stop and think about it and apply yourself.  And don't wait until the last month before your time to get certified, before you start looking for projects.

[MADMAX]

I have been in the program since 1996 and I am not going to re-new.

[Lowedog]

My problem with the Master Hunter program is that it is taking opportunities away from all of us that are not in the program.  The damage control elk hunts in our area are being taken away from us "average" hunters and given to the Master Hunter program as SECOND ELK TAGS!  Over 200 elk tags are authorized for the MH program in two elk units from Aug 1st through March and Feb with a dozen of those being any elk tags as a second elk tag.  Those are tags that used to be available for anyone to apply for.  Some of these hunts became known locally as "big bull tags" and for the most part the elk are on public land.  A lot of local people applied for these tags because they now the area well and also know the orchardist who are having the problems.  The orchardist themselves applied for these tags and I have even been told that a few of them were very upset to learn that they or friends or family would not be able to apply for these tags anymore unless they were MH's. 

I appreciate the work that some of you as MH's have put in but I don't think it's right to take hunting opportunities away from every one else to reward you for your time.  Especially when you see for example in these two units last year that nearly 200 MH's went after the 12 any elk tags and only 60 applied for the 400 antlerless tags and once again these were SECOND ELK TAGS for the MH's.

I think the program would be a lot better without rewards like this and would weed out those that are only seeing it as an opportunity to get to kill more than one elk or deer or as a chance for a trophy hunt.  Someone stated earlier that they would probably stay in the program without the rewards.  I think those are the type of individuals that the program needs.  That would change the perception that most of us have of it being a good ol boys club that has taken opportunities away from all of us.

-Lowedog

[buckhorn2]

What about the elk. Where I live the master hunters are hunting all the way into the end of febuary they are supposed to be helping the cranberry farmers. They park in my yard and hunt at least 4 miles from the nearest bogs. The state says the elk range that far. The year before one of the farmers shot a 5 point the day before season on his bog. Wy is always the bull. I don;t like it sept into nov. is enough but chasing them to the end of feb. is wrong. If they shoot them on the bog I am okay but chasing them when they are staying 4 or 5 miles away trying to survive the winter is to much stress. There are 10 of these permits for master hunters. If they are such master hunters they should already have there elk.

[luvtohnt]

I just finished my Master Hunter, and I think the program is great. Since the program started the two individual land owners I know have had no problems with elk. The elk have learned to stay on state land. It actually makes me mad that as soon as I finish they no longer come to their property. I have talked to a couple of other Master Hunters and they all said they took cows not calves. As far as the orchards go if it is the area I am thinking about I am extremely glad that they changed the way they handled things in that area. I am in the program to add credentials to my resume. I would stay in even if they took the 3911 away. There are multiple areas that I know of that are holding elk in the 3911 but they are on state land so they are safe unless they decide to come down to the farmers fields.

If they are such master hunters they should already have there elk.

I think you have misunderstood the concept behind the Master Hunter program. As stated above I am one and I have never killed a deer. It doesn't make you a better hunter it simply means you are taught to use extreme ethics in your decision making.

Brandon

[high country]

instead of complaining about the MH program, get out there and participate. the only folks who can't reap the rewards are convicted offenders. if doing a bit conserve work and showing that you are reasonably smart is too much too much to ask, how cn the dept count on you to hunt in a suburban setting? there is no "eliteist club" in wa, there are those that stepped up and those that haven't......those that haven't either don't want to or can't.......neither of which should be complaining for their situation is by choice.

I am obviously a supporter of the program. I know we are goin to have 10 day elk seasons for ever, and i know that I can't always get those 10 days off, the program makes hunting waaaay less stressful for me. I also know of the 10 or so guys that I know who were MH's half or more got booted in the last cut for offenses, and rightly so. they ade those choices on their own.

if you were the dept. would you rather cut checks from your already slim budget or have voulenteers out hazing the elk? now would you want those voulenteers to be reasonably stand up guys or guys busted for poaching already?

[Lowedog]

instead of complaining about the MH program, get out there and participate. the only folks who can't reap the rewards are convicted offenders. if doing a bit conserve work and showing that you are reasonably smart is too much too much to ask, how cn the dept count on you to hunt in a suburban setting? there is no "eliteist club" in wa, there are those that stepped up and those that haven't......those that haven't either don't want to or can't.......neither of which should be complaining for their situation is by choice.

I am obviously a supporter of the program. I know we are goin to have 10 day elk seasons for ever, and i know that I can't always get those 10 days off, the program makes hunting waaaay less stressful for me. I also know of the 10 or so guys that I know who were MH's half or more got booted in the last cut for offenses, and rightly so. they ade those choices on their own.

if you were the dept. would you rather cut checks from your already slim budget or have voulenteers out hazing the elk? now would you want those voulenteers to be reasonably stand up guys or guys busted for poaching already?

Not everybody wants to be in the program for whatever reason we may have.  The units I brought up are not in an suburban setting and are not 3911.  The elk herd that is in these units are 90% of the time on public land.  The dept used to manage the damage by letting the orchardist haze the elk and then issue kill tags to them when necessary.  Going on 20 years ago now the dept formed these elk units and started managing the elk through permit hunts.  Hunts that start early when the elk are nowhere near the orchards.   

I have no problem at all with the MH program being used for suburban settings.  If the elk are hammering an orchard with houses around then by all means bring in a MH or 2 and let them shoot a cow if that's what it takes. 

I just don't agree with taking opportunities away from the rest of us to reward you for your time.  Especially when it's for a second elk.  When you look at the numbers of MH's applying for the tags that I stated in my first post it's obvious that most of these guys are in the program only to increase their chance at killing a big bull as a second elk.  A big bull that's laying in some guys orchard in the middle of winter at that!

The dept has plenty of recourses available for voulanteers such as the RMEF and MDF not to mention the land owners themselves who ultimatly have the say about who they will allow on their land.   


-Lowedog

[high country]

my expierience on landowner kill tags is that the owner and his family and buddies will do the hunting......or the highest bidder. not that I am against the landowner making some $$ to cover his loses, but the current system allows any legal hunter that has completed the course the opportunity to help out.

as for shooting big bull lying under a tree in an orchard. I put in for those hunts every year as my last choice. the reason is I do have the opportunity to hunt at a time of year that fits my schedule. in my business getting time off up untill late oct/nov is very tough.....most guy talk about how they used to hunt. I use the program to open my season a whole bunch. and FWIW I have been batting at least 100% since I entered the program in 1997 or so. I killed exactly two elk previous to entering the program one was in the war zone on bethel ridge and the other was close to home. I could never go back. if this state only offered a 10 day season and no way to get around that legally I wold move across the street into idaho.

interestingly enough of the 5 people I know that began enrolement last year...none did anything with it.....and ironicly all are applying again.

If I had my way this goofy state would not have  the program, it would allow hunting of one game animal and allow hunting that animal via archery, mod and front stuffer.....just like most other states........but alas they are never gonna do that, so I do the next best thing to allow myself opportunity.

[Lowedog]

I don't blame you one bit for using the program to increase your hunting opportunities.  I have considered it myself but I honestly don't agree with the program taking opportunities away from those who are not in the program.  Using the MH's to take care of those problems where you want someone who has been subjected to training and all to take a cow if necessary is one thing but letting them kill big bulls in the dead of winter on a second elk tag as a reward is just as wrong as indians killing them when ever they want.

These permit hunts when open to all hunters to apply for took place periodically starting in Aug. and Sept.  Those are times when the elk are not doing any damage so why take those hunts away from everyone?  Those early hunts are/were there to keep the number of elk down in those areas before winter hits and they move closer to the orchards. 

My mention of the landowner kill tags refered to the way the dept. managed the area before creating these elk units and managing the herd with permit hunts back in the early 90's.

-Lowedog

[high country]

I view it as this: I want to hunt big bulls in the blues, but those days are gone. the only way to hunt bulls in the blues now is to apply by the depts deadline, pay their fee, add you points and hope for the best. the only way to hunt elk for a long time is to send off for the package, ace the test and apply.....there is a catch for everything in this state.

I do wish they would just try for one year to addopt idaho or montana's strategy......but that still is not going to give them a pool of guys that have proven their efforts for the urban hunts.