Sidearm for Black Bear.

[superdown]

I have seen a wounded Black bear killed with a 9mm at about 3 feet. I have seen a wounded black bear killed at about 3 feet with a 357. I have seen a black bear shot with a 44 mag 240 grain bullet, soft point Winchester. already wounded, the bullets penetrated about 3 inches. did not kill it.
that said I have killed bear at lots of ranges with lots of guns. I have seen bear shot numerous times with good cartridges, and wounded. it is all, ALL, where then bullet hits.
Carl

Im with you 100% my friend, BULLET PLACEMENT.

Bullet placement is paramount to realizing a responsible and efficient dispatch.....of any animal.  But as important as bullet placement is, it does not stand alone as the only factor in that regard.  If that were true, most would carry .22's for the task the OP is inquiring about. 

All opinions are as valid as one wants to believe they are........mine being no different.  Given that.......a .9mm would be generally considered better than a rock, but that doesn't make it a prudent nor safe choice.  A full power .357, 10mm., .41 through .44mag. on up is certainly better.

Good placement with any of these is no less important, but there is obviously a bit more wiggle room when these cartridges are employed.  Sometimes when we believe that what options we've decided to place are trust in are 'sufficient' for the job or possibilities that we may face, we take chances that we might not otherwise take.  And oftentimes these choices are based on financial, 'gut', economic priorities and other reasons beyond our immediate control and we have to necessarily make due with what we have, ie, "better than a rock".

My 4" 629 is handloaded with 300gr. Beartooth bullets that plain destroy things.....big, thick, hard things.  And when I place them exactly where I want to or even very close to where I intend, there is mass destruction and no thought of it being just a step or two higher on the "better than a rock" scale.

Confidence, especially in traumatic and quickly evolving situations, allows for more calmness in all situations.  In a scenario involving employing a firearm in a protection situation, calmness would also allow for better shot placement.  If there is even the slightest doubt that your chosen cartridge will not stop what is now 100% dedicated to trying to maul, murder or kill you, your confidence level in the firearm and cartridge you've just employed better also be at a full 100%......or better.  If not, as stated earlier, your confidence/calmness level will be compromised, your shot placement compromised and your full attention to the object of your terror will be compromised because you are already thinking about other options that you must now consider to survive this confrontation.

Having a ballistically proven, well documented 'stopper' cartridge and reliable firearm on your person, one that you've become very proficient with, can help to eliminate all of those compromises.  Bullet placement is therefore no more or less important than several other major factors that all need to be in place in order to survive that which itends to do us harm.

Sooo......I would suggest that anytime one feels it necessary to respond to a ballistics related comment with, "well, it's better than a rock", he or she already knows that they are 'undergunned' in regards to the question asked......IMHO.

Good luck........... 

 

 

Very well stated 

Don't feel under armed at all. I'll be carrying a .30-06 and a 9mm, ill be just fine! And like I said, BETTER THAN A ROCK! Seen a man kill a bear with a .243 at 250 yards one shot kill! It is truly ALL about bullet placement. You don't need BIG MAGNUM calibers to get the job done, you just need a well placed shot or two. For you to tell me how I feel about my firearms is just asinine of you my friend!

You obviously feel you know your weapons very well which is a good thing. But i think you may have a little bit of a thin skin good luck on your hunt and stay safe

[BULLBLASTER]

A 243 at 250 yards has triple or better the energy your 9 has at the muzzle. 

[fisheral87]

You have every right to draw your own line with respect to your personal protection.

The fact that you seem offended by someones concerned for your well being based on their own experience without providing relevant evidence to support your assertions is absurd.

In other words a .243 in a hunting scenario ain't a 9mm in a charging scenario.

Al

P.S. Dwayne Johnson is still the Champ.

[magnumb]

Don't feel under armed at all. I'll be carrying a .30-06 and a 9mm, ill be just fine! And like I said, BETTER THAN A ROCK! Seen a man kill a bear with a .243 at 250 yards one shot kill! It is truly ALL about bullet placement. You don't need BIG MAGNUM calibers to get the job done, you just need a well placed shot or two. For you to tell me how I feel about my firearms is just asinine of you my friend!

Asinine............... .  Maybe..... .

As was mentioned above, in short, and correctly so.........what the heck does your .243 comparison have to do with a .9mm..... .

Many, if not most owners of firearms, know little about their firearms.  The internal workings (nomenclature) and potential ballistics using this or that load, bullet, bullet weight and so forth are either not that important to them or they just could care less.  A bit like most people don't know alot about their vehicles that they drive daily because they work most of the time.  Put gas or bullets in 'em, they run and they shoot, respectively.  You're good to go and that's all that matters......you think.  But we were talking about a very specific use for a very specific purpose.  And even though the ballistics on even a particular 'rock' can be determined given all the information necessary, none of us care because we don't consider a rock a viable alternative to a firearm.

If you read all of your comments carefully and unemotionally, you should be able to clearly see that you 'think' that your .9mm is better than a 'rock', but have no clue as to how much and all of your comments and statements indicate that you are well aware that the .9mm, for your stated purposes, is minimal, at best, under the most advantageous of conditions. 

In truth, none of us really knows if your .9mm is "better than a rock", but only because we have no clue as to the specific characteristics of the particular 'rock' that you were intially referring to.  Actually, it is quite possible that a particular rock moving at a certain speed with a particular weight and shape will have more energy than the largest, most powerful handguns...............not to mention your .9mm....... .

What is lacking here and is not uncommon as I stated earlier, is that you aren't interested in ballistics, know nothing about it and choose to throw out comparisons and other's experiences (.243 example) as definitive answers in a very desperate attempt to support your arguments and position.  That just doesn't fly on a site such as this with many experienced and knowledgable hunter/shooters and handloaders.  There are many here that are much more 'experienced' that choose to not make comments and definitive statements unless they are totally irrefutable, out of respect for others and themselves.  Yet you throw out this and that comparisons that have absolutely no correlation or direct relationship to anything useful, especially ballistically speaking.  It is ballistics and ballistics alone that shooting/hunting discussions truly evolve around in one form or another, with very, very few exceptions.

No harm nor foul in being ballistically challenged, again, you are in the majority.  But as one would not expect to find a blind man entering into the bull ring nor Taylor Swift taking on Ronda Rousey anytime soon, it might be best to reconsider how you choose to make ballistic comparisons and the manner in which you discount others subtle and polite attempts at guiding you in the direction of perhaps thinking a bit more before you immediately take offense and rush to make an emotionally, totally ballistically related, less than useless response or comment.

I certainly don't have the answer as you are the one and only person that can know for sure, but if you took any prior posts as a direct attempt to disparage you and you alone for reasons that you seem to have conjured up in your own mind and then you not being willing to believe that some members here are actually trying to generally help others (you) to help them become both more informed and safe.......now that would be asinine and perhaps even very costly, in several regards (family, buddy, pet, yourself, etc.). 

I doubt that I'd like my bear sausage to have even the slightest hint of Spokane or a Hi-Point after taste............so be safe and do us both a favor.... .
 

 

[JimmyHoffa]

A 243 at 250 yards has triple or better the energy your 9 has at the muzzle. 

muzzle to muzzle the .243 only has about 50% more momentum, which likely counts for more in that situation than energy.

[RadSav]

Sometimes over confidence in a cartridge puts us in as much danger as not having any weapon at all.  As I mentioned before, when guiding we put ourselves into those situations in order to recover clients animals.  But we did so with great caution and preparation.  Not sure I would rush in on a wounded bear in thick brush, blocking his only real path of escape, armed only with a 9mm.  I'm sure the 9 would be fine if I worked the situation in my favor realizing the limitations of what weapon I had.  But someone with too much confidence in something with limitations could get in trouble really quick.

When I took that bear point blank with the .444 I had the option of going after that bear with my .45.  But, in that situation and terrain the .444 was the obvious choice due to the likelihood I was going to be loose footed and unable to make a well executed shot.  To make the quickest kill possible meant being point blank, going in fast and falling out of the situation immediately.  The falling out was easy due to the steepness of the hill, but the rest was a limitation where the .45 was not the right choice.

On the other hand, the bear I double tapped at 5' when it had the dog in it's mouth favored the .45.  Long tunnels rabbits thought twice about taking.  Dog there to make sure the bear would take another escape route.  No room for anything on my back and approach was hands and knees.  Getting an accurate shot seemed easier with the .45 under those conditions and I knew the bear had other places to run than right at me.  The situation was able to be controlled and there was no need for a rush and bail approach.  Only reason it played out the way it did is that the bear was killing the dog and I knew the size of the bear and the angle of attack favored the weapon on hand.  It was the right weapon and luckily all worked perfectly.

Either of those situations would have played out much differently had I only been armed with a 9mm.  We may have lost one and I'm sure the animal would have suffered longer on the other as we waited for a favorable situation to arise for the weapon at hand.  Had we used the same approach in both scenarios armed only with a 9mm...I can not say with certainty what would have happened.  Would I have died? - Not likely.  But the danger level would have surely risen to something more than my comfort level would accept for myself, the dog and the client.

Is the 9 better than a rock?  If you MUST use it...absolutely!  But if armed with only a rock makes you avoid a bad situation that favors neither?  Then no, the 9mm is not better than a rock!

[BULLBLASTER]

A 243 at 250 yards has triple or better the energy your 9 has at the muzzle. 

muzzle to muzzle the .243 only has about 50% more momentum, which likely counts for more in that situation than energy.

i calculate it as more than double the momentum at muzzle. Even at 250 yards the 243 momentum is drastically more than the 9 at the muzzle.
In the end how a 243 performs is not relevant at all to how a 9 would perform. The 243 wins every time.

[fisheral87]

Absurd may have been too strong a word. 

[Kittman]

This post must be specific to calling Blackies and whatever else comes your way.  I never have had the need for a sidearm for spot and stalk tactics.  Always one shot and the bear is dispatched and then goes down for good.

[tonymiller7]

P.S. Dwayne Johnson is still the Champ.

I wouldn't know, I quit watching it when Austin and The Rock left.  The product today is TRASH!  Long live the ATTITUDE ERA!

[Machias]

Like to add a couple of thoughts, firstly that list is only bear fatalities.   Does not include attacks that were not fatal and it does not include attacks lethal and non-lethal committed by lions.  Just because I choose to wear a sidearm does not mean I'm freaking out about bears or any other predator.  I have been close to many bears, probably more than a good chunk of folks here.  I have a healthy respect for them, but do not fear them.  I carry in the woods for the same reason I carry when I'm not in the woods.  You never know when you might need it.  I always go into the woods with a fire starter, so far in nearly 40 years I've never needed to start a fire to save my life, but it would be foolish in my opinion not to have it in case I needed it.

[JJB11B]

P.S. Dwayne Johnson is still the Champ.

I wouldn't know, I quit watching it when Austin and The Rock left.  The product today is TRASH!  Long live the ATTITUDE ERA!

Dwayne Johnson is The Rock

[magnumb]

Like to add a couple of thoughts, firstly that list is only bear fatalities.   Does not include attacks that were not fatal and it does not include attacks lethal and non-lethal committed by lions.  Just because I choose to wear a sidearm does not mean I'm freaking out about bears or any other predator.  I have been close to many bears, probably more than a good chunk of folks here.  I have a healthy respect for them, but do not fear them.  I carry in the woods for the same reason I carry when I'm not in the woods.  You never know when you might need it.  I always go into the woods with a fire starter, so far in nearly 40 years I've never needed to start a fire to save my life, but it would be foolish in my opinion not to have it in case I needed it.

Good points......all..... .

Whether in the woods or within the city, I CC for the exact same reason.  And yes, bears aren't the only 4-legged animal that cause me to be aware while afield.  Also, animals protecting their young and those predisposed to rabies also have my undivided attention.  Humans.......they are always at the top of that list.

I have also been fortunate throughout many decades to have had numerous encounters with bears/cubs and to a lesser degree, cougars(5).  I'm in awe of them and their skills and abilities, but like you, I don't fear them. 

I would suggest that we also are somewhat less intimidated, to a certain degree, by both our field/shooting skills and general animal knowledge and by our choice of protection/firearm/caliber, be it while afield or in a populated area.

There can be no more of a confidence enhancer in a unintentional overnight stay in the woods than having a well chosen firearm on your person......for several reasons.  The obvious safety/protection reason and also as a pure survivalist tool.  I want enough momentum and/or energy (I'll let the other 2 members sort that one out..... ) from the firearm/cartridge that I've chosen to drop whatever animal can serve as food and shelter for me, if need be.  Not all situations and potentially deadly scenarios occur during weather systems like we're currently experiencing.  Killing an elk, if in elk country, would serve several important purposes.  The seemingly obvious food factor likely being everyone's first thought and priority.  But in the dead of winter, finding shelter within the warm body cavity of an elk, albeit inclusive of some work and spent energy, can be the difference between welcoming the next morning or not.

In order to maximize those chances and subsequent opportunities, your choice of firearm and cartridge should realistically take into account that potential.  Given outright hunting with a handgun compared with the survival scenario using a handgun, there should be exactly zero difference in your reasoning to choose the same firearm/cartridge in either situation. 

More, even oftentimes just a little bit more, is often the most prudent choice.  The % of times the majority of us had ever wished that we were using a 'lesser' cartridge likely pales in comparison to wishing the opposite. 

It's all about confidence......so pick wisely, cuz' when you're 'in it', that's not the time to be questioning or feeling just so-so about your choice. 

[jasnt]

I couldn't agrea more machias and magnumb

[buglebrush]

I own and carry a Ruger Redhawk .44 mag. And a 5" XD .45 that I shoot buffalo bore +p flatnose.  The thing is the XD carries so nice right on my waist belt I usually carry it when hunting ( archery ).  I had an experience with a grizzly last year that makes me wish I could carry my .44 as easily.  Ease of carry vs improved firepower...