Jasmine training with RJ

[Old Dog]

I made some mistakes in training Jasmine, so I took her to RJ Marquart for a month of professional training.  He warned me up front that a month may not be enough, and that it all depends on Jasmine.  So far I'm pleased with the results.  I see her on the 8th for a training clinic the Northwest Pointing Labrador Club is hosting at Scatter Creek with RJ.  Then she goes back to Moses Lake with RJ for the balance of her training.  He wants me to send her to Montana with him for a month, but I really can't afford that.  The month I paid for dipped heavily into my hunting fund, but I think the extra training will be well worth it in future hunts.  I really like that RJ posts video of her progress on his Facebook page.  Here's a link:

Day 4.  When I took her to RJ, she was pulling me all over the field to get to the bird.
"https://www.facebook.com/173261679386790/videos/905383836174567/"

Day 11.  Is she pointing, or is she standing game?     I'm going with pointing, but I paid good money for that result, so I'm biased. 
"https://www.facebook.com/173261679386790/videos/909037482475869/"

[constructeur]

Did you ask what the logic behind giving the dog the 'win/prize' (the bird and the retrieve) even though it's not acting as it should? I've never heard of or have seen that before.

[Old Dog]

I'm a novice at this, so I'm not sure I understand your question.  In the day 11 video, Jasmine held point while RJ worked up beside her, and dropped he lead.  She held point, albeit for only a short time, but she did hold point, so she was rewarded.   

How do you do it?

[constructeur]

Sorry I wasn't more clear, I meant that until the dog holds point for certain and doesn't rush in, it doesn't get to have a bird shot, and it doesn't get to enjoy the retrieve. (all bird dogs, at the end of the day, want a mouthful of feathers...)

In my experience the method for getting a dog to stop rushing and start pointing is to set up pigeons in a launcher and as soon as the dog breaks, the bird is launched. Eventually the dog puts it together that it's pressuring the bird into launching, and stops the behaviour.

I don't want to come across as being critical of someone who's trained way more dogs that I have, I just have never seen that method and am curious about it myself.

[Old Dog]

In my experience the method for getting a dog to stop rushing and start pointing is to set up pigeons in a launcher and as soon as the dog breaks, the bird is launched. Eventually the dog puts it together that it's pressuring the bird into launching, and stops the behaviour.

Thanks for the PM. 

A little back ground may help you understand my problem better. 

I have a small game bird farm.  I got careless when Jasmine was about 9 month old, and she was able to get to and kill nearly 20 chukar. From that point on her prey drive has been incredible, but of course she did not point.

I tried for nearly a year to use the method you suggested, and it just did not work with Jasmine.  One of my training partners made the observation "that dog just doesn't have quit in her".  RJ Marquart has a reputation for working with "problem dogs", and another of my training partners was taking her dog to him, so I called, and set up a time for him to do an assessment of Jasmine.  I liked what I saw , so I wrote a check and left her with RJ. 

I saw Jasmine at a training clinic RJ held at Scatter Creek Saturday, and I am very happy with what he has accomplished with my dog, so it is obvious that his methods work.  I have learned one thing through all this, and that is not all dogs respond to training the same.  It's our job as trainers to recognize this, and be willing to try different methods. 

[Happy Gilmore]

Did you ask what the logic behind giving the dog the 'win/prize' (the bird and the retrieve) even though it's not acting as it should? I've never heard of or have seen that before.

This is a good little list on how RJ's methods work....

http://quicksilverkennels.com/?page_id=147

[constructeur]

Paul- You may have missed me writing this:

I don't want to come across as being critical of someone who's trained way more dogs that I have, I just have never seen that method and am curious about it myself.

or maybe you didn't. Whatever  .

[addicted2hunting]

Did you ask what the logic behind giving the dog the 'win/prize' (the bird and the retrieve) even though it's not acting as it should? I've never heard of or have seen that before.

This is a good little list on how RJ's methods work....

http://quicksilverkennels.com/?page_id=147

show me his skills on wild chukar....

[addicted2hunting]

easy peasy getting a dog steady WSF on planted birds....

[Old Dog]

Ya gotta learn to walk before you can run.  The next step would be wild sharptail in Montana for a month, but I'm outa funds.   

[wildweeds]

You were reading my mind, crawl/walk/run and polish.The reward based system that is lengthend day after day until the dog will stand happily without coercion(BPK/E collar) the dog learns to be patient to get it's reward which is the bird at the onset the dog gets to break to get the bird because that is it's natural inherited reaction is to pursue and that's no matter the breed.Anybody that trys to say their dog "Hunts for them" is full of it,dogs hunt for themselves it's a survival instinct of life that man will never ever break it's been tried for 100's of years and a lost dog always manages to revert to instinct and survive. Hunting "For you" is mistaken for "Conditioned" to hunt with you,"Conditioned" is "Training" and there are several styles of "Training" the "Submission" which involves causing the dog to submit to commands by any means neccessary(BPK, Beat/Punch/Kick or Ecollar fry tactic) or the gentle approach of little steps day by day gaining ground each day until the desired effect is reached.I've known R.J. alot of years now and the comment of how his dogs do on wild chukar is comical,he's a dog trainer who lives in Eastern Washington and he hunts 4-5 days per week it may be for only 4 hours per day but it's still time on the ground and alot of the time he takes dogs that are nearing the end of their training for the "Transition" from planted birds that are "Easy peasy" to get WSF(which there is no F in wing and shot).Wing and shot has meant and will always mean "Through the kill until commanded/released to retrieve since the 1800's.This "Fall" buisness was started by the NSTRA group and picked up by every other johnny come lately.I'll stick with the guy who's been a pro trainer since the age of 13 who is 48 years old and has 35 years of training experiance and multiple field championships in 7 different breeds of pointing dogs.I met two of his mentors who learned to train dogs without the aid of any modern electronics or gizmos,Bob Pettit and Tommy Schwertfeger,Tommy had the nickname of "Pigeon Magician" as he was one of the first to do intro training with pigeons,the man was a real birddog fella and won his first German shorthair national championship in 1953 I think.Those two old guys taught alot about "Style" and "Class" which are terms that relate to what a dog looks like when "Around Game" and the old  time methods to get it trained.

Ya gotta learn to walk before you can run.  The next step would be wild sharptail in Montana for a month, but I'm outa funds.   

[addicted2hunting]

 well, I have heard nothing but good things about RJ... I was just stating something after the response Constructuer got after asking RJ's methods for doing what he does. It was just a question out of curiousity... The wild bird wasnt a comment so much about RJ hunting wild chukar but the dogs... A trial/test dog with titles doesnt mean jack when a dog needs to cover mountains and hold point when he is far out of sight of the handler. It takes a truly broken dog or a dog that is very high in cooperation.

whatever you wanna call it, steady to wing and shot or WSF... if they both mean the final product is the dog doesnt move till sent thats fine... all I'm saying is it isnt a 2 month long process...most pros are only working your dog for 15 to 30 mins a day and the rest is you paying for the dog to stay there... It is much better for you and the dog to be "coached" by a pro and do it by yourself then to have him do it all... much cheaper also...You also benefit with a better bond and get more respect out of the dog if you do it yourself and your next dog you will know how to go about doing it without a pro...more of an investment in your future as a trainer/handler...

just my 1 pennys worth...didnt mean to pee in anyones cornflakes....

[Old Dog]

It is much better for you and the dog to be "coached" by a pro and do it by yourself then to have him do it all... much cheaper also...You also benefit with a better bond and get more respect out of the dog if you do it yourself and your next dog you will know how to go about doing it without a pro...more of an investment in your future as a trainer/handler...

just my 1 pennys worth...didnt mean to pee in anyones cornflakes....

All is good, and I agree the best trial dog in the world isn't much good if it can't transition to wild birds,  but you need to re-read my original post. 

I made some mistakes in training Jasmine, so I took her to RJ Marquart for a month of professional training.  He warned me up front that a month may not be enough, and that it all depends on Jasmine. 

In my original post I neglected to add that the Montana training is on wild sharp tails. In addition the work with Jasmine I have had two days of "coaching" with one more session to go.

Keep the comments coming, but let's agree to disagree. 

[jetjockey]

I'm going to be the devils advocate for a minute.  Get over the idea that trial dogs aren't wild bird dogs!  Some may not be, but to win at the highest level, a dog better be able to handle wild birds, and that's why most top Pros have summer camps in the prairies or Canada where they only train on wild birds.  Many Pros in the South also have agreements with some of the wild bird plantations to train only on wild birds.  It's a myth that trial dogs aren't wild bird dogs!

As for training, I agree, and disagree.  If your paying a Pro to only train on pigeons and birds shot out of a release, that is something that you can do by yourself and not pay for.  On the other hand, a Pro who will run your dogs on wild birds during the offseason on a regular basis is priceless.  How many people have wild birds available to train on enough to make a good bird dog?  Almost none!  That's where paying a Pro is money well spent.  You can't train a dog how to hunt wild birds unless the dog is put on LOTS and LOTS of wild birds!!

[wildweeds]

It's a 2 month process with an extra month for "polish".A reward based system works,you trick the dog into doing it right and then you reward it. For instance you go to work,you do a job,and you get paid for it. Constant fly away birds is a paycheck the dog never sees,a dead bird in it's mouth is it's paycheck.There are alot of fly away broke dogs in trialing and you can see which ones they are,their style drops significantly at the flush of the bird because they know to stand still or they get zapped or hit in training.The dog that is rewarded stands taller waiting for the fly away bird to fall to the ground.