Free: Contests & Raffles.
In my experience the method for getting a dog to stop rushing and start pointing is to set up pigeons in a launcher and as soon as the dog breaks, the bird is launched. Eventually the dog puts it together that it's pressuring the bird into launching, and stops the behaviour.
Did you ask what the logic behind giving the dog the 'win/prize' (the bird and the retrieve) even though it's not acting as it should? I've never heard of or have seen that before.
I don't want to come across as being critical of someone who's trained way more dogs that I have, I just have never seen that method and am curious about it myself.
Quote from: constructeur on August 07, 2015, 05:01:42 PMDid you ask what the logic behind giving the dog the 'win/prize' (the bird and the retrieve) even though it's not acting as it should? I've never heard of or have seen that before.This is a good little list on how RJ's methods work.... http://quicksilverkennels.com/?page_id=147
Ya gotta learn to walk before you can run. The next step would be wild sharptail in Montana for a month, but I'm outa funds.
It is much better for you and the dog to be "coached" by a pro and do it by yourself then to have him do it all... much cheaper also...You also benefit with a better bond and get more respect out of the dog if you do it yourself and your next dog you will know how to go about doing it without a pro...more of an investment in your future as a trainer/handler...just my 1 pennys worth...didnt mean to pee in anyones cornflakes....
I made some mistakes in training Jasmine, so I took her to RJ Marquart for a month of professional training. He warned me up front that a month may not be enough, and that it all depends on Jasmine.
It's a 2 month process with an extra month for "polish".A reward based system works,you trick the dog into doing it right and then you reward it. For instance you go to work,you do a job,and you get paid for it. Constant fly away birds is a paycheck the dog never sees,a dead bird in it's mouth is it's paycheck.There are alot of fly away broke dogs in trialing and you can see which ones they are,their style drops significantly at the flush of the bird because they know to stand still or they get zapped or hit in training.The dog that is rewarded stands taller waiting for the fly away bird to fall to the ground.
There's not a lot of "fly away" broke dogs where we trial.
B#llsh!t. Sorry, but I'll call it as I see it! You don't break a dog in 2 days. And I know lots of Pros as well. The type of Pros who win the AKC Nationals! You don't break a dog in two days. Especially if you want a decent dog.
What's a months worth of training run? My lab is doing good with all training, but I don't have the time/resources to upland train him, so was thinking about sending him off for a few months when it's time.
Keep telling yourselves that. Breaking when it hits the ground, when a shot is fired, blah blah blah. It ain't broke to wing and shot. You don't break a dog in 2 or 3 days. I don't finish my dogs because I dont have thousands of acres of wild birds to train on several days a week. I pay someone for that, and it's the best investment money can buy in the bird dog world. You will never hear me apologize for that. That doesn't mean I don't know what is possible. I fully understand that some dogs essentially break themselves, but that's the dog, and you breed for that. My dog doesn't break because she's worried there will be hell to pay. She doesn't break because she's learned to appreciate the find and the flush. When a dog can appreciate that, while standing tall and proud as the bird flys off, and even falls, you truly have a nice bird dog.
A dog that breaks when the bird hits the ground is................Steady to wing that has been the definition since before our grandfathers were young boys,my grandfather would be 104.Steady to wing and shot is the dog doesn't move until released with a verbal or physical cue such as a tap behind the head or to the withers.
6hrs a day of training with the same dog? Seriously?
Sorry, but that's ridiculous. I can't handle 6 hours of training a day. There's a reason Pros keep serious training to about 30 minutes a day of less. Don't take this the wrong way, but your not helping your dog.
Quote from: jetjockey on August 11, 2015, 07:55:29 PMSorry, but that's ridiculous. I can't handle 6 hours of training a day. There's a reason Pros keep serious training to about 30 minutes a day of less. Don't take this the wrong way, but your not helping your dog. I mean he gets his breaks, its not solid 6 hrs. I'm usually out there for 8 total. but I am now realizing that its apples to oranges really as I am a navhda guy and don't train for style really and you guys have to with AKC and trials and stuff so I get that. yes us versatile guys don't really have a ton of style to begin with and we aren't judged on it so we can get away with more pressure. there is noooo doubt your dogs will have More style with that 12 0clock tail and all...
I have seen versatile dogs with 12 oclock tails,Wirehairs/vislas/German shorthairs and even a couple of verminrunnin weimeraners.They would have lots of style but IMO versatile owners start applying the hammer and turning the screws way to young.BTW you can't train for "Style" the dog is born with it.Excessive training and training tactics knock it out of them.Quote from: addicted2hunting on August 11, 2015, 08:21:51 PMQuote from: jetjockey on August 11, 2015, 07:55:29 PMSorry, but that's ridiculous. I can't handle 6 hours of training a day. There's a reason Pros keep serious training to about 30 minutes a day of less. Don't take this the wrong way, but your not helping your dog. I mean he gets his breaks, its not solid 6 hrs. I'm usually out there for 8 total. but I am now realizing that its apples to oranges really as I am a navhda guy and don't train for style really and you guys have to with AKC and trials and stuff so I get that. yes us versatile guys don't really have a ton of style to begin with and we aren't judged on it so we can get away with more pressure. there is noooo doubt your dogs will have More style with that 12 0clock tail and all...
It's not just style your taking away. Your also taking away the confidence, the independence, and setting yourself up to get a dog that blinks. All those things go hand in hand. Breaking a dog naturally takes away a dogs confidence because your asking it to do something that isnt natural. Good trainers will build a dogs confidence up by letting it run, chase birds, bump birds, and build its confidence and independence. When you break a dog, you naturally lose some of that confidence and independence. However, after the breaking process the dog will typically regain that co fire cd, and more, but only if you instilled the confidence to begin with. If you break a dog too early and really hammer down in it, they often never get that confidence back. You may have a dog that can pass a NAVHDA test on released birds in a controlled situation, but that dog won't have he confidence to be a great wild bird dog because they are afraid if they do anything wrong they will get zapped. And believe me, with wild birds, they will screw up. That's the reason you don't break a dog until it's ready, and the reason you take your time and do it right as to not create a robot.
NSTRA does not require your dog to be steady to shot if memory serves. You shoot and the dog starts running and that's okay. If someone can say otherwise please speak up. But as far as I know national champion NSTRA dogs are trained that way as some believe it helps the dogs find the birds they must retrieve.Training is a matter of taste and what a venue requires.Plenty of trial dogs can point a wild bird for an eternity. That's not where some might break down in chukar hunting. It's the physical demands that might be a problem if a dog hasn't been conditioned for it.NAVHDA favors dogs that work more robotically. What field trial dogs are expected to do would be considered "self hunting" under NAVHDA. Nothing wrong with either, but the expectations and demands are different.
That's cause your in the south and good ol redneck boys ain't got soft hearts against killing pen raised birds.Birds out here are at a premium,with 12-15 dollars for a chukar the cheapest part of training a dog is what people are the cheapest about.They try to recycle birds with cardboard/hoses and blank gunsThe whole scenario is phoney and fake.Quote from: jetjockey on August 11, 2015, 01:38:00 PMThere's not a lot of "fly away" broke dogs where we trial.
Quote from: wildweeds on August 11, 2015, 06:06:12 PMThat's cause your in the south and good ol redneck boys ain't got soft hearts against killing pen raised birds.Birds out here are at a premium,with 12-15 dollars for a chukar the cheapest part of training a dog is what people are the cheapest about.They try to recycle birds with cardboard/hoses and blank gunsThe whole scenario is phoney and fake.Quote from: jetjockey on August 11, 2015, 01:38:00 PMThere's not a lot of "fly away" broke dogs where we trial. If money is the concern you buy some homers and let them breed. Then purchase a small number of actual game birds and don't kill them. Instead you plant your game bird(s) and pigeon(s) and launch the pigeon(s) if the dog creeps. The pigeon flies home and the game bird can be reused next time too. If a dead bird is necessary the same exercise works, just shoot the pigeon and not the game bird.Homing pigeons are cheap for dog training, even more so if you have a pen of them that reproduce. They also frequently flush better than pen raised chukar and quail making them the superior choice for stop to flush training imo.
Quote from: AspenBud on August 12, 2015, 12:02:42 PMQuote from: wildweeds on August 11, 2015, 06:06:12 PMThat's cause your in the south and good ol redneck boys ain't got soft hearts against killing pen raised birds.Birds out here are at a premium,with 12-15 dollars for a chukar the cheapest part of training a dog is what people are the cheapest about.They try to recycle birds with cardboard/hoses and blank gunsThe whole scenario is phoney and fake.Quote from: jetjockey on August 11, 2015, 01:38:00 PMThere's not a lot of "fly away" broke dogs where we trial. If money is the concern you buy some homers and let them breed. Then purchase a small number of actual game birds and don't kill them. Instead you plant your game bird(s) and pigeon(s) and launch the pigeon(s) if the dog creeps. The pigeon flies home and the game bird can be reused next time too. If a dead bird is necessary the same exercise works, just shoot the pigeon and not the game bird.Homing pigeons are cheap for dog training, even more so if you have a pen of them that reproduce. They also frequently flush better than pen raised chukar and quail making them the superior choice for stop to flush training imo.Exactly how I do it. Although I got some racing homers instead. But that chukar and pigeon setup works really well.Yeah I saw the clinic video.... Looks good.. I would like to talk with RJ about why he tosses the dead bird after shoot to miss. Seems like he has something there...
All right, a good discourse. Now back to our original programing. Here's a link to a video of the clinic RJ put for the NW pointing Labrador Club last Sat. The video is kind of long, and the clip of Jasmine is very short. feature=youtu.beI remain very pleased with the results so far. Next step is to do it off lead.
