Devils Advocate.(Indian affairs)

[runamuk]

What do you mean Joevon?  I'm pretty sure that a gutpile and red bloodstain provokes different feelings than a camera toting individual.  Is that what you mean....

Damn right I am jealous Pope.    Suprised you don't feel that way with the 50 sheep tags  they get......

Stress is Stress.  Say for example, a photographer sees a buck he wants a picture of, tries to put a stalk on it, but blows it and the Buck takes off.  This creates stress on the buck that really isn't warranted.  Say this happens multiple times while the Buck is on its winter range.  Every time this happens this Buck is burning reserves, and at some point runs out of them, and dies.   What i'm getting at is a Dead Buck is a Dead Buck....wether its a bullet (a legal one by the way) or starvation, its the same thing.   So tell me,  does a buck that is shot (legally) or a buck that is starved warrant the same amount of emotion?

Joe

Assuming the shot buck isn't wasted then I personally feel bad for the starved buck  , starvation is a painful way for any critter to go, I realize its part of nature and happens at times but prefer to not see it, especially in quantity

[boneaddict]

I hear ya.  You'll note most of my pics in the snow are from about 1,000 yards so I do understand where you are coming from.  In fact its why I am not going out tomorrow to check one of the haunts I used to back before I had more of a conscience.  It will cost me a bunch of antlers this spring as there will be others out, but I am going to leave them alone.  this is sort of off from what I was getting at though.  I was wondering more about public opinion and how they compare the two. 

[Red Dawg]

ya know I think there is a huge difference between the two. people around me know nothing about the governors tags but they do know what indians are like and most will say the same thing that we do on here.

[ICEMAN]

I think that the average non hunter has no clue as to what we or the tribes do. When I have explained abuses, it raises the eyebrow. When I have had the chance to share with non-hunters, the challenges that hunters like myself face...., the difficulties involved, and then on the contrary some of the "tactics" that I have personally witnessed by tribal hunters, they are shocked. Video of tribal poachers aftermath at the St Helens volcanic monument....cows and calves shot that were in snow next to the highway.... Tribes driving into the closed road system of various private timber companies and driving past myself and wife as we hike four miles in, only to have tribal hunters blast game from the car ahead of us. Yep, the non hunting public is shocked to hear of these things.


I think that when you compare the contrast, the difficulty that most hunters face, compared to the relative ease that some tribal hunters have at killing multiple animals, this is the crux of the frustration by me, and the amazement of the non hunter. I have had folks exclaim..."oh...I'd be pissed....".

[mossback91]

Stress is stress but the general public fews a photographer as a nice man not killing anything....... not the same with a hunter....

Alot of the general public doesnt know enough about deer to even know that pressureing them in the winter is bad

[popeshawnpaul]

How much different is it to sneak around on the Winter Range, photographing animals?  Just another "perspective."

I don't know.  If you push them a hundred yards is it really as bad as loading them up in the truck dead?  Besides, I don't sneak around and shoot anything on the winter range.  Every deer I've shot on the winter range was from my pickup truck this year.  I shoot all my shots in November mostly.   That's why there is no snow in any of my photographs.  

By the way, my perspecitve above was me playing "devils advocate" as the thread inspired us to do...

[mossback91]

big problem we got here is pope can play this game all nightlong

[norsepeak]

It's not about "they get to and we don't" for me...it's about a return on my investment.  I pay a lot of money every year for hunting and make donations of time and money, and I want that money to go to helping sustain healthy populations of "game" animals.  When the natives are "hunting" (read poaching) they are stealing from me!  You never see them out volunteering their time and money for habitat rehab, you never see them volunteering to feed the elk or build fence, you never see them at Elk Foundation or Mule Deer banquets forking over a couple hundred dollars to help the cause, you only see them "stealing" from you and I, the ones who do try to help and make a difference.  Hunting is a managment tool, but like all tools if they are used improperly, somebody gets hurt, and in this case it's the guys like us that pay to hunt and volunteer our time and make donations.  It just pisses me off!  Sorry about the rant, but I sure feel better!

[popeshawnpaul]

Mossback...yeah, I do like to debate don't I?... 

Norse, I completely agree with you but I don't think 8 out of 10 people walking down the street see much difference.  I'm not sure how they could be educated to see the difference, hence my devils advocate response was stated as such.  I asked my paralegal, she didn't see much of a difference until I talked it over with her. 

[Pathfinder101]

I would say that the difference is that the Gov's tag is ONE guy who harvests ONE buck.  Once in a lifetime deal.  Tribal members can (and do) take multiple deer per hunter, each year.  At least the ones I knew were good about eating every last morsel of meat on the animal, but that is besides the point.  I don't care who you are, you don't need to shoot mature, breeding bucks in the winter range to eat.  I have an issue with shooting pregnent does in December also, but not as much.  If we could use the tribal seasons to manage herd numbers (instead of using managment to try to recoup the losses incurred by tribal hunting) we would be a lot better off.  We all know that the mule deer numbers in WA have been hurting for decades.  If they have to issue tribal substenance permits, why not make them for whitetail does?  The tribes of course will scream about this, but they already complain that they can't have a 12 month hunting season, so what's a little more hollering? 

And by the way; I grew up with a stepdad who was a member of the Spokane Tribe, a fantastic hunter and hunted for substenance (not for us, but for several of the older members of the tribe).  ALL of that substenence hunting was done ON the rez, AS NEEDED (i.e. when an elder called him up and said her freezer was getting empty).  He never hunted off the rez, unless it was for himself, with a regular tag, during the regular season.  He always said that the reason that the hunting on the rez was so crappy was because there was no management. 
 
I don't think most non-hunters care, or see a difference though.  Unless you made the subject into a reality show for them... then everyone would become an "expert"...


Good thread.

[PacificNWhunter]

Great topic Bone.

I think the average non-hunter tends to lead towards idea that neither the hunters nor the tribal members actually care about the animals their hunting. They just see hunters and tribal members killing these cute little deer, with no apparent concern for the animals well being or future. I don't think the public differentiates between the two of us. Not to mention the only time either party is portrayed in the news it's in a negative light.

[Wenatcheejay]

(((SIGH)))

"Can't we, can't we....All just, just, get along???

[boneaddict]

Probaly easier to do so Wenatchee if WE were a WE.  WE the PEOPLE of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.   With EQUAL oppurtunity, EQUAL rights, EQUAL problems EQUAL EQUAL EQUAL.  Folks talk about predjudice, yet by setting yourself up to be different to go by different laws, live a different way, you are in fact creating a predjudice.  If you want to be a nation succeeded from the Union, then cut all ties with this other Union.  No more stimulus checks, no more school funds, no more free college education. etc.   Get your passport and when you cross the line you are now in a foreign country. 

[buck470]

I guess my biggest "Drive" in this Whole matter is having Elk for my son to hunt when he get's my age. That about another 30 years.

I don't care who shoot's the Dam thing, as long as they play by the rules!! and it is counted into the stat's the WDFW uses. That way they can properly manage the herds. Now if they mis-manage the herds that a diff. subject.

But as it stands now, the rules need to change!! I've been commenting off and on, on this subject all week, but I've also been trying to gather Email addresses of all the people that need to hear these stories. I'd like to think we could gather allot of info, pictures, licence plate numbers, Get a good letter written, and the shotgun it off to everybody we can (thats where the email list comes in) and if we can find out where these pecker heads live, I'd slip a copy in there mailbox! just so they knew we were on to them, and we are not gonna put up with ther s**t anymore.

[boneaddict]

I appreciated your efforts.  Thats why I resurrected that thread for a bit, for input like those links.